Savant Prestige Information

[Emili]

What the heck deals 400-500 HP a pop in epics?

The worse I've EVER been hit for is a 244 dmaage cometfall in epic Last stand.

Everything else has been less.

People mention ...

The Kobold Shamans in Epic VoN1 cast disintegrate.
The Beholders in Epic VoN2 cast disintegrate.
Horoth casts disintegrate.
As mentioned before, Velah's breath.

But in reality is not the one shot ... but the two or three shot which kills. A roll of one on a save followed by multiple ranged and melee attacks in quick succession before the situation allows reaction. Tinyelvis is correct as (Sgail solo'd epic snitch, claw, partycrashers, von 1 - an elven wiz wo a PrE which is spec'd nearly all damage enhancements, toon was rolled in a by-gone era). The difference in playing this style though is less zurge... bitting off less at a time and consolidation. Precaution bites into mana pools and managing mana pool more important.

The easiest resource on the character to replenish is indeed HP and the hardest is SP. The wiz above has 350hp, figure 370 raged, and then add in stone skin, GH, resists, blur, displace... etc... now we're replacing hp with SP. Top off regen via her con op and torq and we're slowly replacing back.

DC is actually the equivalent of a melee's "to-hit" - mirrors such in aspect and why CC equivalence up there with melee in epics and even among many damage spells so you must look and select damage spells where saves are less prevalent when going thru spell choices.

In conversation last night with a guildie - he's somewhat ticked at the coming changes concerning his sorc, he states why make his sorc more marginally scoped in limits of CC for epic content. Thinking such over I realized is this PrE and the cries of all complaining the scope of epic content in what is useful and not that the changes coming to them exists... my personal view is that why such places use to more abilities of more classes the outcome will be more weight placed on the resource pool in particular on the divine.

Every nuker knows mitigation and DPS are at odds with one another ... mitigation robs from the upper tiers of DPS, sp use on buffs is less sp use on DPS spell and personal evading affects output of streamlined nuking... is a given. DPS zerge - the reason many melee persist is due constant flowing DPS with a dicine strapped to the backs four or five heavy melee rip through raid bosses in under a minute - 200000hp+ - the mitigation being nothing more than HP along with some cures allowing the constant flow of 600 DPS from each of the members of the line. The divine blue bar is being traded in ratio for the mobs red bar in such case.

If the the melee had to self mitigate the DPS drops this is why the quickest route to end-reward is but shear brute force... if self mitigating DPS does go down and true in every class.

[Carpone]

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

I find this difficult to believe.

[Viisari]

Well, when you become experienced with the game you will learn how to,

1. Safely fight, dodge, and/or avoid beholders in VON 2 so that you never take their disintegrate damage, and always kill them safely.

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

3. How to cast protective spells on yourself and hide from Velah's breath so no damage event like that ever happens.

Essentially, the more talented you are at damage mitigation, the less hitpoints you really need. If your play skill is at a high level and your play style does not warrent it, why take the extra hitpoints you dont need? It's obvious your skill is not at this level or you would never have put up those examples. In your case, toughness is probably a good idea. In fact, I advise many newer casters to go that route.

However, it is not a necessity for every sorcerer or wizard.

But in epics there are situation where you will get hit no matter how well you play, and when you get hit in epics, you get hit hard. Your 200hp won't last long when an orthon lands all three bolts from his crossbow for 70dmg each. There are plenty you of instances in epics where you will basically get instakilled if you have less than 300hp if everything doesn't go as planned.

Sure you can negate plenty of damage by jumping around and playing smart, but that won't save you when you roll badly and get stunned or for some other reason are unable to move and heal yourself. If you say that never happens, well, I don't think I can believe that.

And even ignoring all this, how is it that all the best arcanes on my server go for two things, max dc and max hp?

[Carpone]

I know that they said that the stoneskin cap was being removed so that you can cast a 260 stoneskin with earth 3 but what about firewall? Will the fw cap be removed or raised to accomodate the fire speced sorc?

Should the cap be raised? Yes. Will it be raised? Unlikely.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Well, when you become experienced with the game you will learn how to,

1. Safely fight, dodge, and/or avoid beholders in VON 2 so that you never take their disintegrate damage, and always kill them safely.

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

3. How to cast protective spells on yourself and hide from Velah's breath so no damage event like that ever happens.

Essentially, the more talented you are at damage mitigation, the less hitpoints you really need. If your play skill is at a high level and your play style does not warrent it, why take the extra hitpoints you dont need? It's obvious your skill is not at this level or you would never have put up those examples. In your case, toughness is probably a good idea. In fact, I advise many newer casters to go that route.

However, it is not a necessity for every sorcerer or wizard.

Have you ever died?

If the answer is yes, then more hp wouldn't hurt.

And I think we can all guess that the answer is in fact, yes.

Fact is, if you were to play like me, that is, rushing in red DA regularly. You would not handle it with low hp.
If you want to play as FAST and as efficiently as possible, you'll want hp. The fact that you think your "uber tactics and super player skill" will save you is, in fact, hilarious.
The thing is, when you've got HP you don't have to dodge every projectile just to survive.

PS: Good luck dodging abbot's disintegrate, unless you're constantly moving, and never lagging.

[PopeJual]

You disagree with me, therefore you are unskilled.

Summarized.

[tinyelvis]

But in epics there are situation where you will get hit no matter how well you play, and when you get hit in epics, you get hit hard. Your 200hp won't last long when an orthon lands all three bolts from his crossbow for 70dmg each. There are plenty you of instances in epics where you will basically get instakilled if you have less than 300hp if everything doesn't go as planned.

Sure you can negate plenty of damage by jumping around and playing smart, but that won't save you when you roll badly and get stunned or for some other reason are unable to move and heal yourself. If you say that never happens, well, I don't think I can believe that.

And even ignoring all this, how is it that all the best arcanes on my server go for two things, max dc and max hp?

There are some very good players who have a play style that requires them to take toughness. There are also a whole lot of players who have a low game experience level and they perform better with more hit points. I think if you have not yet learned to buff yourself so you dont take the high orthon damage and believe that there are lots of places in epic where you often take 300 + damage then you fall in that latter category.

I don't believe you really know who are the best arcanes on your server, but lets say for the sake of argument that you do. Well, then these fellows will be less versatile than and in many cases do less damage than a veteran caster who can manage without toughness. Further, if the new mod comes out with changes being currently discussed, they will fall even further behind in that area.

[Failedlegend]

Because we spend 24 hours on the 20 levels below that (really 19) and unlimited time at CAP (until we get bored and do the 20 levels below that again). Calling CAP a "SMALL part the game" is generally not accurate.

How is repeating the SAME quest 50 bjillion times a good thing? Actually IIRC tis the definition of Insanity. Oh and mister I cap in 24 hours...luckily I have this thing called a life so it takes me a while to hit 20...and when I do ill try out a few lvl 20 quests than guess what...ill make a new toon....and no making my level 20 a level 1 again for MINOR near pointless bonuses is different than rolling a new toon.

[tinyelvis]

Have you ever died?

If the answer is yes, then more hp wouldn't hurt.

And I think we can all guess that the answer is in fact, yes.

Fact is, if you were to play like me, that is, rushing in red DA regularly. You would not handle it with low hp.
If you want to play as FAST and as efficiently as possible, you'll want hp. The fact that you think your "uber tactics and super player skill" will save you, is in fact, hilarious.
The thing is, when you've got HP, you don't have to dodge every projectile, just to survive.

PS: Good luck dodging abbot's disintegrate, unless you're constantly moving, and never lagging.

Again, showing your lack of understanding or tolerance of other play styles. You can dodge the abbots disintegrate for an infinite amount of time. All the while attacking him constantly and as effective as possible with any arcane. No less fast than anything you are suggesting. Sure, a lot more game knowledge, quest knowledge, and skill may be required but the trade off is an additional feat.

Your play style is no more fast paced. In fact, I would guess it is slower. Head into wiz king solo with a fleshie caster built and played as you suggest and try to kill off all of the first room quickly. You will be on your butt every few seconds. This means less time spent casting at the minimum and more chances for a back to back immobilize cast on you at a bad time leaving you at the mercy for at least half a dozen seconds to a dozen opponents.

Have you ever gone thru a quest and not dropped below 300 hp's. If the answer is yes, then maybe you have too many. Which situation occurs more often?

For me and my play style, its this one. If your style or need is different fine. Just don't try to preach to me that it is the only way to play.

[Emili]

Summarized.

He misses the point entirely that every bloody sorc and wiz with HP actually uses spells for resists and evade damages the same as he... the difference however is they may do so longer without have to stop and self-heal or take time to recast something else besides a DPS spell... is one foot or the other.

My interest here is that I have an very old elven wiz a simple dc 39, 350hp, 2500sp no PrE and totally damage spec'd... the old pre-orchard way of building them. I do not see where his force of personality comes into that much play either and how he equate such to being "knocked on your arse" ... I've run plenty of epics without it and never suffered from a "will save" spell if anything fort and reflex are more the caster's bane caster are strong in will as is.

[Emili]

How is repeating the SAME quest 50 bjillion times a good thing? Actually IIRC tis the definition of Insanity. Oh and mister I cap in 24 hours...luckily I have this thing called a life so it takes me a while to hit 20...and when I do ill try out a few lvl 20 quests than guess what...ill make a new toon....and no making my level 20 a level 1 again for MINOR near pointless bonuses is different than rolling a new toon.

I have only one TR... I'll state my reasons why.

I was all excite when I finally farmed enough tomes to replace and make TR worth my time. I was looking forward to playing through all the old quests my prior favour capped character run many years before.

I was so disappointed however when I run thru those quests and the trash mob lived up to their name - unwarrented as even being there - and most the bosses one, two or three shots in blitz... She is near favor capped again and nearlly all the favour I put on her I run her at or below the level of the quest. Fact is had she been brand new 28 pointer those quests would still present NO challenge and the DDO I knew is gone for easy play... I was sad and Slink consoled me. The Devs tossed away my game for player retention. I ended up soloing most that content simply on elite on a single pure fighter with limited resource and used little resources.

There are NO challenges in the lower/mid and lower high level quests anymore. The devs turned them all into nothing but time-sync... people complain of Epic grind ... possibly some truth there but my view is it's less of a grind than that of TR'in or even that first 28 pointer. I would argue that among levels one thru nineteen 99.9% of the quests are grinds - just simplistic time syncs where even elite is but three min here ten min there easy as pie - no challenge what so ever.

[Jaid314]

Well, when you become experienced with the game you will learn how to,

1. Safely fight, dodge, and/or avoid beholders in VON 2 so that you never take their disintegrate damage, and always kill them safely.

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

3. How to cast protective spells on yourself and hide from Velah's breath so no damage event like that ever happens.

Essentially, the more talented you are at damage mitigation, the less hitpoints you really need. If your play skill is at a high level and your play style does not warrent it, why take the extra hitpoints you dont need? It's obvious your skill is not at this level or you would never have put up those examples. In your case, toughness is probably a good idea. In fact, I advise many newer casters to go that route.

However, it is not a necessity for every sorcerer or wizard.

ah, but what do you do about the person who can't figure out "point and click" who's standing opposite you in the asteroids part of accursed ascension raid?

[AubreyPhoenix]

Well, when you become experienced with the game you will learn how to,

1. Safely fight, dodge, and/or avoid beholders in VON 2 so that you never take their disintegrate damage, and always kill them safely.

2. Use advanced fighting techniques so that Horoth cannot ever hit you with disintegrate.

3. How to cast protective spells on yourself and hide from Velah's breath so no damage event like that ever happens.

Essentially, the more talented you are at damage mitigation, the less hitpoints you really need. If your play skill is at a high level and your play style does not warrent it, why take the extra hitpoints you dont need? It's obvious your skill is not at this level or you would never have put up those examples. In your case, toughness is probably a good idea. In fact, I advise many newer casters to go that route.

However, it is not a necessity for every sorcerer or wizard.

With these PrEs, a high con at the very least is going to be a good idea, because the SLAs are based on con. As a result, you'll have a decent number of hitpoints as you will be starting with high con, doing likely a +2 tome, a +6 item, exceptional bonuses, etc. Also, if someone sees a very low HP total on MyDDO, you may have a little problem when it comes time to PUG. I've turned down someone for being very squishy, or no fort when I ran raids. Toughness is the first feat I take on any character, and I'm not the only person who does it that way. Dunno about anyone else, but I'm much happier when I'm actually doing the quest and contributing to the party than when I'm taking a backpack ride to the next shrine, or feeling bad that I made the healer or a scroll-user waste resources to pick my squishy butt off the floor. Toughness is an extremely good idea, and there are few feats I'd take over it. Anything less than 12 con, preferably 14, and you're asking for pain. If you're the reason that the healer needs to use an extra mass cure every cycle, you'll be very unpopular.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Again, showing your lack of understanding or tolerance of other play styles. You can dodge the abbots disintegrate for an infinite amount of time. All the while attacking him constantly and as effective as possible with any arcane. No less fast than anything you are suggesting. Sure, a lot more game knowledge, quest knowledge, and skill may be required but the trade off is an additional feat.

Then I doubt you've ever played Abbot. Having skill wont save you from a mili-second worth of spike lagg.
And man, it gets so tedious to just strafe circles and jump around bosses all the time, I remember when shroud first came out and I had to do that.
Good thing I can soak a disintegrate or dfb in the fact without dying.

Your play style is no more fast paced. In fact, I would guess it is slower. Head into wiz king solo with a fleshie caster built and played as you suggest and try to kill off all of the first room quickly. You will be on your butt every few seconds. This means less time spent casting at the minimum and more chances for a back to back immobilize cast on you at a bad time leaving you at the mercy for at least half a dozen seconds to a dozen opponents.

What's that I hear? Is that your credability flying out through the window?
The fact that you think you could possibly be faster than me, is mind-blowing.

Have you ever gone thru a quest and not dropped below 300 hp's. If the answer is yes, then maybe you have too many. Which situation occurs more often?

Having hp above the quota is always FAR better than having insufficient amount of hitpoints.
Lets face it, this game is VERY easy, and the only time you really need anything above average is when the sh!t hits the fan. And when it does, having hp will save you; not overkill in saves.
(Fun fact, due to the D20 system, having more than X in a save doesn't do anything, it doesn't matter if you made the save with a lot of margin or not.)

For me and my play style, its this one. If your style or need is different fine. Just don't try to preach to me that it is the only way to play.

It's not the only way to play, I've never said that.
But assuming living is winning, and dying is losing; then having more hps is a superior way of building a character.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

ah, but what do you do about the person who can't figure out "point and click" who's standing opposite you in the asteroids part of accursed ascension raid?

Haha, hilarious. And so true.

Also, gets kinda hard to solo asteroids if you die in one or two hits.

[voodoogroves]

My Sorc i'm TRing right now is at 18 and only has 300 some HP; it feels light.

Playstyle.

My wizard runs over 500 usually. Every once in a while I eat a disintegrate (epic Malicia, say) and I'm happy to have them.

[Viisari]

There are some very good players who have a play style that requires them to take toughness. There are also a whole lot of players who have a low game experience level and they perform better with more hit points. I think if you have not yet learned to buff yourself so you dont take the high orthon damage and believe that there are lots of places in epic where you often take 300 + damage then you fall in that latter category.

I don't believe you really know who are the best arcanes on your server, but lets say for the sake of argument that you do. Well, then these fellows will be less versatile than and in many cases do less damage than a veteran caster who can manage without toughness. Further, if the new mod comes out with changes being currently discussed, they will fall even further behind in that area.

Oh but I do buff, but buffs merely negate most of the damage, they won't take it all away when things go wrong. And I wasn't saying that I often take more than 300dmg in a short time, I merely pointed out that it is enterily possible to get that much damage in a short time when things go wrong, and when they do, you're going down with your low hitpoints.

Also, I never said that toughness is required, I will probably drop it myself on my wizard, but that's because I'll soon have around 420hp even without it, which I've found to be plenty for a caster in all epics I've done, (which is most of them, including devil assault almost daily and all epic raids), but I really wouldn't want to have less than 350hp at most.

Yes, it's true that I don't know all the best arcanes on my server, but I do know a few of them, and a quick look at myddo tells me they all have >400hp, funny that.

[PhattyMcbutterpants]

*tosses his hat in the ring*
Please forgive a newb. I have read the posts, please allow me to summarize and extrapolate.

From my current understanding the subject of the last several dozen posts is, the weighted effectiveness of the Toughness feat (and it’s ap cost) verses . . any other feat a caster might like to take.
What are we really arguing about here?

80hps vs what topping off a few damage enhancement lines and in this case buying some will saves? With the crux of the argument that I have skillz thus I don’t need the hp’s vs. the line “from my experience you need the hp’s” and, I have a hard time believing you are that good.

I think from where I stand if you can show us video of your skills brag . . other then that let somebody else give you props. If you can’t prove it or even get another person to back it . . don’t say it. It’s weak sauce at the very least and poor mentoring at it’s best. If people cannot duplicate the advice you give then it is worthless.

Bottom line I have played with some of the best on my server. My toons NEVER match up to what they can do. However the difference is small. If you have a solid build with decent gear, you can get buy in this game. To steal a phrase “the difference between good and great is inches not feet.”

So, generally speaking unless you can demonstrably give me anything that can make my character better. Let’s move on to something more germane to the topic.

[Sydril]

Any chance that Past Life: Sorcerer feat might be a substitute for spell focus conjuration / evocation for the tier II requirements?

[PhattyMcbutterpants]

Now that would be intresting . . .
dout it though.

would be tipped to far in favor of the tr and no other tr gets that kind of advantage tward a pre