Savant Prestige Information

[Zachski]

So I'm guessing Savants don't get their elemental forms? That's a huge let down. So far this prestige is more cost than gain, and very minimal boosts.

I imagine they're saving the elemental forms for the third tier.

[Geonis]

Try again.

DDO's implementation is a straight 1d3+3 per level to each creature affected. There is no diminishing damage nor a cap. The only 'problem' is that it's a reflex save.

Ok, not real familiar with high level direct damage spells in DDO, as they have been pretty much useless past about level 14.....

[grodon9999]

The tier III Elemental Savants will not require an additional feat expenditure. (Unless you opt for the Greater Dragonmark of Storms.)


Yeah, that was mean, so I'll elaborate a little.

There are a bunch of changes being made that will have major impact on Epic (and other high level) content. The hit points of epic trash are getting reduced significantly. Death wards have been removed from non-bosses in nearly all high level content (though some changes have been made to "zero opportunity cost" death effects to prevent levels 17+ from become purely vorpal-fests). Changes have been made to social skills (some of which has been discussed). Changes have been made to the helpless state to make it affect all damage sources, but makes the state a bit less game-breaking. Many spells have been modified to make them more in-line with expected efficiency.

More details will be forthcoming shortly.


Or a partial splash of a non-opposed element. (But I'd probably go with the force line myself.)

I know you promised more details shortly and this is highly off-topic but I'm asking for a small bone. Are the to-hits of epic trash getting lowered to a more sane level?

[PopeJual]

Actually, that simply isn't true.

The energy to both increase the car's velocity and decrease the car's velocity by the same amount (+x, -x) is exactly the same.

The work required to increase the car's velocity is exactly the same as the work required to decrease the car's velocity as you state, but rolling friction and air resistance are constantly doing work to decrease your car's velocity, so the decrease is much easier because you have to do extra work in one direction and some of the work is done for you for free in the other direction.

Additionally, braking is much easier than acceleration because friction is cheap and easy to obtain with a rough surface and clamping pressure applied to the wheels while acceleration is harder to obtain.

[Geonis]

I imagine they're saving the elemental forms for the third tier.

Really? Do you think maybe they would have led with something like that as clues, rather than badgers with lasers or whatever nonsense they were talking last week?

I would put up cash that elemental forms aren't in update 9, and probably not planned at all.

[Zachski]

Really? Do you think maybe they would have led with something like that as clues, rather than badgers with lasers or whatever nonsense they were talking last week?

I would put cash that elemental forms aren't in update 9, and probably not planned at all.

...Probably because Tier 3 isn't actually coming out this update, most likely.

[Trillea]

Really? Do you think maybe they would have led with something like that as clues, rather than badgers with lasers or whatever nonsense they were talking last week?

I would put cash that elemental forms aren't in update 9, and probably not planned at all.

Not sure about the badgers but the lasers were part of the FvS PrE (you get a shoulder archon that shoots lasers with you)

As for the elemental forms, I'll take that bet. If you have a toon on Thelanis, I'll wager you 100k plat and a large devil scale that there is some type of alternate element-specific form in the tier 3 (possibly with an extra AP cost).

[Trillea]

...Probably because Tier 3 isn't actually coming out this update, most likely.

No, Eladrin said that all 3 tiers were going to be here for update 9. He's just withholding the information to watch us slaver and squabble over it, and I am sure that he is enjoying it immensely. (I know I am! I love these kind of debates, and seeing how they sway one way to another as the next tidbit of info drops.)

[Jonandu]

Not sure about the badgers but the lasers were part of the FvS PrE (you get a shoulder archon that shoots lasers with you)

As for the elemental forms, I'll take that bet. If you have a toon on Thelanis, I'll wager you 100k plat and a large devil scale that there is some type of alternate element-specific form in the tier 3 (possibly with an extra AP cost).

make it a million plat and sign me up for this bet. Need to get in on this action

[AylinIsAwesome]

Uh, no, you misunderstand me. Or maybe I worded it wrong, I don't know.

You can't go from 88 MPH to 89 MPH very easily at all. You can go from 88 MPH to 60 MPH much easier, even without braking.

That's what I mean.

You were talking about total energy the first time, which is conserved in the system.

Friction from the road and air resistance are forces which, as you continue moving, use energy to slow you down.

If you use a set amount of energy to have your car go 60 mph, it will take the same amount of energy for air resistance and friction to slow you down. Gravity can also have an impact.

You were probably thinking of just the kinetic energy, but there's also potential energy and thermal energy acting on the car. The total sum of the kinetic, potential, and thermal energies used to speed you up will be equal to the total sum of those energies used to slow you down by the same amount.

And that's how I think it works with the Elemental Savant ability. You're giving up power from one element to gain power in another element, but since gaining power is harder than losing it, it ends up being a 2:1 conversion.

6/9 = 2/3, not 1/2.

What mechanism causes you to need to lose more in one area than you gain in another? What's the resisting force?

[Saravis]

The work required to increase the car's velocity is exactly the same as the work required to decrease the car's velocity as you state, but rolling friction and air resistance are constantly doing work to decrease your car's velocity, so the decrease is much easier because you have to do extra work in one direction and some of the work is done for you for free in the other direction.

Additionally, braking is much easier than acceleration because friction is cheap and easy to obtain with a rough surface and clamping pressure applied to the wheels while acceleration is harder to obtain.

Also, you have to apply the energy expenditure of gas when accelerating, so accelerating does expend more energy.

But who cares? I don't want accuracy, I want functionality. If you want to be all accurate, then PMs should take damage from positive energy and should have no constitution as opposed to a bonus to con. And no I'm not suggesting they do that, well maybe I am, but thats beside the point. 1-1 ratio please.

[Zachski]

No, Eladrin said that all 3 tiers were going to be here for update 9. He's just withholding the information to watch us slaver and squabble over it, and I am sure that he is enjoying it immensely. (I know I am! I love these kind of debates, and seeing how they sway one way to another as the next tidbit of info drops.)

Ah, right, I forgot about that.

It is indeed. However, in these situations, I prefer to be the optimist. This isn't the first time we've had doom and gloom over a PrE, only to have it turn out fine, and I doubt it'll be the last.

[Coldin]

I would refrain to refercing any spell descriptions from PnP or DDO. Simply based on the changes to Melf's Acid Arrow and Lightning Bolt, I'm willing to bet many spells have received similar changes to damage, effect, and sp cost.

[Geonis]

Not sure about the badgers but the lasers were part of the FvS PrE (you get a shoulder archon that shoots lasers with you)

As for the elemental forms, I'll take that bet. If you have a toon on Thelanis, I'll wager you 100k plat and a large devil scale that there is some type of alternate element-specific form in the tier 3 (possibly with an extra AP cost).

Nope, no one on Thelanis here..... As I said, I am seriously doubtful elemental forms were even talked about for this PrE. Everything I am seeing about the PrE points to it being designed in about 15 mins, by someone who has never played a caster.

Who knows, maybe I AM wrong and tier 3 makes Savant the bees knees.... I am seriously doubtful of that, but would be pleasantly surprised if they did.

[dkyle]

You were talking about total energy the first time, which is conserved in the system.

Total energy is not a useful analogy, and is highly counter-intuitive. The energy expended by the car is the useful analogy. The sorc has to expend sp to produce an effect, just as the car has to expend gasoline. The car spends more gas speeding up and maintaining a high speed than it does slowing down and maintaining a low speed.

This is the real-world analogy at play here.

6/9 = 2/3, not 1/2.

What mechanism causes you to need to lose more in one area than you gain in another? What's the resisting force

It's magic. The exchange rate is set because the devs think that's what's balanced. No further lore justification is needed.

Diminishing returns is a core part of many of the games' systems, and in many other rules sets. Just look at the point buy system, and the traditional 1/2/3/4 AP cost scheme.

[Thrudh]

Yes you would have to pretend that the opposition element didn't exist, and with fire having the best all around damage spells in the game and water having the highest no save damage spell in the game that makes for some difficult choices.

That's how you know the devs are doing a good job... Choices should ALWAYS be difficult... That's the mark of a good game.

[Kralael]

Well the real PnP Elemental savant can't cast opposite elements spells. I guess we're lucky they didn't stick to that rule... XD

[TreknaQudane]

That's how you know the devs are doing a good job... Choices should ALWAYS be difficult... That's the mark of a good game.

Yes

[Thriand]

That's how you know the devs are doing a good job... Choices should ALWAYS be difficult... That's the mark of a good game.

Well the devs aren't doing a very good job then, theres not choice here to make except to wait and hope theres better to come.

[PopeJual]

And no I'm not suggesting they do that, well maybe I am, but thats beside the point. 1-1 ratio please.

The reason why you have to take more penalty than you get in bonus is a balance issue. When you can focus on the bonus and just avoid the penalty, then the bonus is much more significant than the penalty.

Because of that, the penalty should be at least a *little* more significant than the bonus. Think about the Fire Savant. They get significant bonuses to their fire spells and they lose... Polar Ray and Frost Lance. That's about it. Sure, Harry will be a little slower to beat down since you won't be cycling through those spells anymore, but you'll have the Force spells to fall back on, too.

Big bonus. Less significant penalty.