Savant Prestige Information

[AylinIsAwesome]

I don't really see what the problem with this PrE is.

Damage spells generally ignore Spell Resistance. If you go Savant, you're looking to do damage. You really shouldn't expect to CC as well.

The problem is that, currently, the only way a caster can be viable in Epics is to Crowd-Control.

If Epics are changed significantly at the same time, I don't think that would be an issue. But since Turbine is only telling us half the story right now, we can't really say for sure.

Savants are supposed to focus your power into an element. It's expect that you would take a bigger hit to the opposing element. Note that you don't take hits to the OTHER ELEMENTS. A fire spec has no penalty to lightning or acid or force spells.

How does it make sense to gain 6 in one area, but lose 9 in another? A 1-1 ratio I could understand, but 2-3 ratio confuses me.

[Geonis]

I still don;t understand the fascination with CL in this PrE. Change the +CL to +% damage and the -CL to -% damage, that makes it universally more useful (as most the spells don't gain anything from CL increase).

[cforce]

Am I the only one who noticed the shortening of Melf's duration?

Melf's Acid Arrow
SP Cost: 6
Effect: Deals 2 to 8 acid damage +1 per caster level to a target with a magical arrow of acid for a duration of 12 seconds. The arrow has double spell range. D&D Dice: Deals 2d4+1 acid damage per caster level (max 2d4+20).

Deals 2 to 8 acid damage to a target with a magical arrow of acid. The arrow does an additional 2 to 8 damage every 2 seconds for a 12 second duration. This duration increases by 6 seconds for every three caster levels after level 3.

Currently, average 5 damage for 22 ticks (for a level 20), or a total of 110. New, average damage 25 for 7 ticks, or a total of 175. More damage in less time = better, but it's also not the 5x in spell point efficiency some folks think?

(Unless, of course, the compendium is wrong, and it's always 12 seconds today?)

[TreknaQudane]

Name the spells besides polar ray and the new melf arrow, that doesn't cap out at caster level 20....

AND GO!

Chain Lightning

[Jonandu]

Spells are changing, and there may be SEVERAL high level ones that the caps are raised or removed (I hope).

speculation....

I hope as well, but from what I know these pres are lackluster....

If the caster levels are raised for many spells.... to 25 like polar ray... Then things will be great. If not and just sp changes then they will suck

Everyone will end up taking water savant for the max benefit.

[bobbryan2]

Some elemental crowd control spells would help too.

Like mass flesh to stone... or thunderclap which causes stuns... etc.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Bog


It's a great early level spell with the right feats, enhancements, equipment and guild buffs. With SF conjuraction, a +1 conjuration DC item, +1 DC guild buff, +2 cha guild buff, +4 eagles splendor, 20 cha (+1 class + 1 level) you have a +11 DC on your Niacs at level 4 and should hit everything even on elite 95% of the time. Toss in heighten and your hitting a +12 DC at level 4. By level 6 (when you get free niacs) you could easily have a DC of 25+ and should be able to keep your DC high enough even as a sorc till lvl 12 so that you hit 95% of the time or close even on elite quests.

So...it's good for Drow-sorcs in high-level guilds with the first two feats being Spell Focus: Conjuration and Heighten?

While I don't doubt that that's true, is all that focus on one spell really worth it for only a few levels?

And, why not take Empower or Maximize first to pump up the more reliable spells?


The 1 SP cast would probably be worth using though, just because it's so cheap.

[Thriand]

I wonder how the savant lines will effect (if at all) spells like prismatic ray/spray or the sorcerer past life clickie that have the potential to do multiple types of elemental damage. I believe they are currently modified with whatever enhancement line you have the highest, but I find it hard to believe it could remain that way with the new enhancements/savant changes.

[dkyle]

Not true. A held enemy isn't moving and it isn't hurting you. It greatly simplifies combat chaos for enemies that constantly jump around.

Yeah, that's something. But I'm not building an Enchantment specc'd wizard for that. I would build a Virtuoso. In a good and well disciplined group, Fascinate is plenty to accomplish that CC effect. The DPS amplification effect of Holds are currently their most important benefit over other CC abilities. Without that, they're not worth it.

The lowered AC is a function of helplessness. I think you lose dex based bonuses and there's another penalty. I'm sure somebody who actually owns the 3.5 ruleset will jump in here and stomp all over my explanation.

In DDO, helpless mobs have no AC. But that's a negligible bonus. It might mean some melee can leave PA on that otherwise couldn't, but that's still such a tiny boost to damage.

It's a similar type of effect to events like blindness where you move at half speed, lose AC benefits and to-hit.

Blindness's primary benefit is auto-sneak attack. Remove that, and it's a waste of time. And blindness is much easier to apply than a Hold. Crit with a RadII Rapier? Auto-blind. Holds have to bypass saves.

Guess what I was trying to say is...it may be about a neutral impact to enchanters but groups that did it by a pure DPS method would get the biggest impact.

Removing auto-crits from helplessness, with no new damage amp as replacement, is far from "neutral impact". That's an absolutely incredibly massive nerf.

[TreknaQudane]

Some elemental crowd control spells would help too.

Like mass flesh to stone... or thunderclap which causes stuns... etc.

Speaking of...

Sorcerer Earth Savant I
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Acid Manipulation III, Corrosive Spellcasting I, Deadly Acid I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell or Maximize Spell.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: You have focused your training on elemental mastery over acid. You gain +2 caster levels when casting acid and earth spells and increase the maximum caster level of these spells by 1, but suffer -3 caster levels when casting air or electricity spells. You gain 5 points of acid resistance and bypass 5 points of acid resistance of opponents. You can cast the Acid Spray spell as a spell-like ability. You also gain a +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep, and a +2 bonus to the Balance skill.

Earth Spells:
Acid Blast, Acid Fog, Acid Rain, Acid Splash, Acid Spray, Burning Blood, Cloudkill, Flesh to Stone, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Meteor Swarm, Protection from Energy (Acid), Resist Energy (Acid), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, a couple of Summon Monsters

Does that mean an Earth Savant gets +6 Spell Pen to Flesh to Stone that will last have a longer duration due to the raised Caster Level cap?

[Geonis]

Chain Lightning

No.

Chain Lightning
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Air 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.

The bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to the primary target. After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down).

Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
Focus

A bit of fur; a piece of amber, glass, or a crystal rod; plus one silver pin for each of your caster levels.

[Trillea]

Speaking of...



Does that mean an Earth Savant gets +6 Spell Pen to Flesh to Stone that will last have a longer duration due to the raised Caster Level cap?

Yes and yes

[Jaid314]

No, I said Evocation needs to be your primary focus for Force Missiles at 12.

why do you think that?

Archmage Secondary Spell Mastery I: <school>
* Usage: Passive
* Cost: 1 action points
* Progression: 43 action points
* Requires All of: Wizard Archmage III, Spell Focus: <School>
* Available to Wizard class level 12
* You have trained extensively in <School> magic, granting you a +1 bonus to your spell DCs of that school. This costs you 50 maximum spell points. This enhancement is available for all schools except for Divination. Only one Secondary Spell Mastery I can be taken.

(not that there actually is a force missiles option to begin with, so i'm still assuming you mean chain missiles, and you can do it just fine at level 12 with secondary mastery, which is available at level 12... which, coincidentally, is the same level chain missiles is an option. you will have to save up some action points, yes. you won't have to take evocation primary though)

[TreknaQudane]

No.

Chain Lightning
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Air 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.

The bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to the primary target. After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down).

Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
Focus

A bit of fur; a piece of amber, glass, or a crystal rod; plus one silver pin for each of your caster levels.

Try again.

DDO's implementation is a straight 1d3+3 per level to each creature affected. There is no diminishing damage nor a cap. The only 'problem' is that it's a reflex save.

[Jonandu]

No.

Chain Lightning
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Air 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.

The bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to the primary target. After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down).

Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
Focus

A bit of fur; a piece of amber, glass, or a crystal rod; plus one silver pin for each of your caster levels.

was just about the post the cap and say thank you come again.... Looks like you beat me to it lol

[Zachski]

Actually, that simply isn't true.

The energy to both increase the car's velocity and decrease the car's velocity by the same amount (+x, -x) is exactly the same.

Uh, no, you misunderstand me. Or maybe I worded it wrong, I don't know.

You can't go from 88 MPH to 89 MPH very easily at all. You can go from 88 MPH to 60 MPH much easier, even without braking.

That's what I mean.

And that's how I think it works with the Elemental Savant ability. You're giving up power from one element to gain power in another element, but since gaining power is harder than losing it, it ends up being a 2:1 conversion.

[dkyle]

No.

Those are 3.5 PnP rules.

The DDO rules (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Chain_Lightning) give no cap.

Of course, there could be a documentation failure there, but unless a cap is documented by someone (I haven't seen anything), there's no reason to believe there is one.

[Geonis]

why do you think that?



(not that there actually is a force missiles option to begin with, so i'm still assuming you mean chain missiles, and you can do it just fine at level 12 with secondary mastery, which is available at level 12... which, coincidentally, is the same level chain missiles is an option. you will have to save up some action points, yes. you won't have to take evocation primary though)

Then I was wrong, you can have better damage, and much better CC as Archmage.

[Noelemahc]

So I'm guessing Savants don't get their elemental forms? That's a huge let down. So far this prestige is more cost than gain, and very minimal boosts.

I think splitting up the elemental enhancement lines was a great idea, but the crit lines and crit multiplier lines are too expensive now. They cost double than what they did before to spec in 2 elements? I think that's kind of dumb to be honest. Crit lines should be 3 (maybe 4) tiers each, going 3, 6, 9, (maybe 12) percent chances, and doing same for crit damage. As of now the new setup just nerfs casters even more, when they are already the weakest class in the game outside of Mass Hold (which is also getting nerfed).

At this point why anyone would bother bringing an arcane to anything anymore is just beyond me. Bard can do the buffs and crowd control, offensive arcane is insignificant.

[Thriand]

Those are 3.5 PnP rules.

The DDO rules (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Chain_Lightning) give no cap.

Of course, there could be a documentation failure there, but unless a cap is documented by someone (I haven't seen anything), there's no reason to believe there is one.

I noticed that as well, I'm loggin on to test it out right now.

*edit*

After playing around for a couple of mins I could tell no noticeable difference between a caster level 20 chain lightning and a caster level 25 chain lightning, however the difference between a CL 20 polar ray and a CL 25 polar ray is immediately noticeable