Savant Prestige Information

[Eladrin]

The problem is we don't have the ANY feats available IF we want to be anywhere near useful in EPIC. Even my Human with a bonus feat is already short one feat.

There are many changes happening to Epic difficulty.

And things with blanket immunities are still going to have blanket immunities.

That is grossly incorrect.

[Eladrin]

At the very least Eladrin, please let the sorc past life feat count as well. If we must sacrifice a feat to the elemental masters for this power, at least let it be one minorly useful. I am a big conjuration fan personally but many are not, and would probably prefer the sorc past life.

Arcane Prodigy sounds like a fair alternative to the Spell Foci.

[Scraap]

That is grossly incorrect.

*pricks ears*
Share with the class?

[Raiderone]

But we still have to give up greater spell pen or toughness if we're not human. Will the sorc past life +1 Evocation count?

Normally it's 20 plus additional SP.
SP=+2, GSP=+2, Enhancement=+3. And typically +2 to +3 Spell Pen from item.

Not including Wiz past life of +2.

So 29 Spell Pen on typical Sorc.

It would be nice if the spell lvl 26 added into it. 26+2+2+3+2=35.

Including into DC's.

[Requiro]

For better View:

Air

Sorcerer Air Savant I 4 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Storm Manipulation III, Charged Spellcasting I, Deadly Shocks I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Least Dragonmark of Storm.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Tumble skill.
• Caster level: +2 when casting electrical and air spells
• Maximum caster level: +1 to electrical and air spells
• You gain 5 points of electrical resistance
• Bypass 5 points of electrical resistance of opponents.
• Bonus ability: +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep
• SL-a: Shocking Grasp (Cost: 1 sp, 3 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting acid or earth spells

Sorcerer Air Savant II 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Sorcerer, Sorcerer Air Savant I, Storm Manipulation V, Charged Spellcasting III, Deadly Shocks III, and any one of Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Focus: Evocation, or Lesser Dragonmark of Storm.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Tumble skill (+4 total)
• Caster level: +2 when electrical and air spells (+4 total)
• Maximum caster level: +1 to electrical and air spells (+2 total)
• You gain 5 points of electrical electrical (+10 total)
• Bypass 5 points of electrical resistance of opponents (-10 toal)
• Bonus ability: Featherfall Toggle, free at will.
• Awaken Elemental Weakness: Electricity: stacking +15% electrical damage to one enemy (Can stack 5 times, 5 SP, 20 sec Cooldown, 30 sec duration, refreshing duration with stack again)
• SL-a: Electric Loop (Cost: 3 sp, 4,5 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting acid or earth spells (-6 total)

Earth

Sorcerer Earth Savant I 4 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Acid Manipulation III, Corrosive Spellcasting I, Deadly Acid I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell or Maximize Spell.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Balance skill.
• Caster level: +2 when casting acid and earth spells
• Maximum caster level: +1 to acid and earth spells
• You gain 5 points of acid resistance
• Bypass 5 points of acid resistance of opponents.
• Bonus ability: +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep
• SL-a: Acid Spray (Cost: 1 sp, 3 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting electrical or air spells

Sorcerer Earth Savant II 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Sorcerer, Sorcerer Earth Savant I, Acid Manipulation V, Corrosive Spellcasting III, Deadly Acid III, and any one of Spell Focus: Conjuration or Spell Focus: Evocation.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Balance skill (+4 total)
• Caster level: +2 when acid and earth spells (+4 total)
• Maximum caster level: +1 to acid and earth spells (+2 total)
• You gain 5 points of electrical acid (+10 total)
• Bypass 5 points of acid resistance of opponents (-10 toal)
• Bonus ability: +10 stacking HP and +2 stacking Natural AC
• Awaken Elemental Weakness: Acid: stacking +15% acid damage to one enemy (Can stack 5 times, 5 SP, 20 sec Cooldown, 30 sec duration, refreshing duration with stack again)
• SL-a: Melf’s Acid Arrow (Cost: 3 sp, 4,5 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting electrical or air spells (-6 total)

Fire

Sorcerer Fire Savant I 4 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Flame Manipulation III, Combustive Spellcasting I, Deadly Flame I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell or Maximize Spell.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Intimidate skill.
• Caster level: +2 when casting fire spells
• Maximum caster level: +1 to fire spells
• You gain 5 points of fire resistance
• Bypass 5 points of fire resistance of opponents.
• Bonus ability: +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep
• SL-a: Burning Hands (Cost: 1 sp, 3 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting water or cold spells

Sorcerer Fire Savant II 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Sorcerer, Sorcerer Fire Savant I, Flame Manipulation V, Combustive Spellcasting III, Deadly Flame III, and any one of Spell Focus: Conjuration or Spell Focus: Evocation.
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Intimidate skill (+4 total)
• Caster level: +2 when fire spells (+4 total)
• Maximum caster level: +1 to fire spells (+2 total)
• You gain 5 points of electrical fire (+10 total)
• Bypass 5 points of fire resistance of opponents (-10 toal)
• Bonus ability: Permanent Fire Guard effect (deal 1d6 fire damage who strike you in melee)
• Awaken Elemental Weakness: Fire : stacking +15% acid damage to one enemy (Can stack 5 times, 5 SP, 20 sec Cooldown, 30 sec duration, refreshing duration with stack again)
• SL-a: Scorching Ray (Cost: 3 sp, 4,5 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting water or cold spells (-6 total)

Water

Sorcerer Water Savant I 4 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Frost Manipulation III, Glacial Spellcasting I, Deadly Ice I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell or Maximize Spell.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Swim skill.
• Caster level: +2 when casting water and cold spells
• Maximum caster level: +1 to water and cold spells
• You gain 5 points of cold resistance
• Bypass 5 points of cold resistance of opponents.
• Bonus ability: +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep
• SL-a: Niac's Cold Ray (Cost: 1 sp, 3 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting fire spells

Sorcerer Water Savant II 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Sorcerer, Sorcerer Water Savant I, Frost Manipulation V, Glacial Spellcasting III, Deadly Ice III, and any one of Spell Focus: Conjuration or Spell Focus: Evocation.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit:

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the Swim skill (+4 total)
• Caster level: +2 when water and cold spells (+4 total)
• Maximum caster level: +1 to water and cold spells (+2 total)
• You gain 5 points of electrical cold (+10 total)
• Bypass 5 points of cold resistance of opponents (-10 toal)
• Bonus ability: Permanent Underwater Action ability.
• Awaken Elemental Weakness: Cold: stacking +15% cold damage to one enemy (Can stack 5 times, 5 SP, 20 sec Cooldown, 30 sec duration, refreshing duration with stack again)
• SL-a: Snowball Swarm (Cost: 3 sp, 4,5 sec cooldown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting fire spells (-6 total)

I suspect that in Tier 3 we get

In prereq: no more feat

• Bonus skill: +2 bonus to the proper skill. (+6 total)
• Caster level: +2 when casting proper spells (+6 total)
• Maximum caster level: +1 to proper spells (+3 total)
• You gain 5 points of proper resistance (+15 total)
• Bypass 5 points of proper resistance of opponents. (-15 total)
• Bonus ability: This is great unknown
• 2nd Special ability: This is great unknown
• SL-a: Frost Lance / Fireball / Acid Blast / Lightning Bolt (Cost: 5 or 6 sp, 6 sec colddown)

Tradeoff:

• Suffer -3 caster levels when casting proper spells (-9 total)

[Jaid314]

Anyone feel that Niac's Cold Ray and Shocking Grasp isn't congruous with burning hands and acid spray? Shocking grasp requires you to get in touch range which is something that low level sorcs might not want to do, and niac's cold ray has a reflex save for no damage which makes it unreliable.

water got screwed over in general for SLAs.

at level 4, did you ever actually think to yourself "oh man, i could really use a snowball swarm right about now"?

at least tier 3 will probably give frost lance. so, of the 3 SLAs a sorcerer gets, the frost-spec sorc will get only one decent one, and it will be gained at the spell level where they would have no difficulty fitting it in to begin with (seriously, at level 18 your level 3 spells are probably: haste, rage, displacement, and "who really even cares anyways")

fire is looking pretty good on SLAs (burning hands isn't awesome, but it's a heck of a lot better than niac's or shocking grasp) as is acid (acid spray is about the same as burning hands in usefulness, acid arrow is actually pretty danged nice now). air got a crappy first tier, but at least has a decent second one (electric loop is a spell i would actually consider using).

looking to third tier, it's probably fireball/acid blast/frost lance/lightning bolt. which they will probably be able to use once every 6 seconds.

or, in other words... water is the redheaded stepchild of cheap nukes. i guess they do get some of the nicest toys that you have to pay for though.

[GoldyGopher]

There are many changes happening to Epic difficulty.

Please share.

Awaken Elemental Weakness multiplies the creature's inherent vulnerability (which typically starts at 100%). An immune creature remains immune (0 * 1.75 = 0), but a creature that starts at 200% damage will end up taking a whole lot of damage once the stack is complete.

That is grossly incorrect.

What have I misunderstood from those two statements.
A creature that is say immune to fire, regardless of the multiplier is still going to be immune to fire.
So since many Eng Game Mobs are immune to Fire and Fire is the most useful spell in other situations it causes a major problem.

[dkyle]

At the very least Eladrin, please let the sorc past life feat count as well. If we must sacrifice a feat to the elemental masters for this power, at least let it be one minorly useful. I am a big conjuration fan personally but many are not, and would probably prefer the sorc past life.

Sorc past life? Isn't that just Mental Toughness with a moderately powerful ray clicky?

Do you mean Wizard past life? That one at least resembles spell focus.

[Geonis]

Ok, so before people start screaming how I am stupid for not falling all over myself at how awesome this PrE is, let's run some numbers.

Example Air Savant.

Sorcerer Air Savant I
Prereqs: Level 6 Sorcerer, Storm Manipulation III, Charged Spellcasting I, Deadly Shocks I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II, and either Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Least Dragonmark of Storm.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: You have focused your training on elemental mastery over lightning. You gain +2 caster levels when casting electrical and air spells and increase the maximum caster level of these spells by 1, but suffer -3 caster levels when casting acid or earth spells. You gain 5 points of electrical resistance and bypass 5 points of electrical resistance of opponents. You can cast the Shocking Grasp spell as a spell-like ability. You also gain a +2 bonus to saves against paralysis, poison, and sleep, and a +2 bonus to the Tumble skill.

Inherent Shocking Grasp
Benefit: You are able to cast Shocking Grasp as a spell-like ability. (Cost: 1 sp, 3 sec cooldown)


Air Spells:
Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning, Cyclonic Blast, Electric Loop, Gust of Wind, Eladar’s Electric Surge, Electric Loop, Featherfall, Gust of Wind, Lightning Bolt, Protection from Energy (Electricity), Resist Energy (Electricity), Shocking Grasp, a couple of Summon Monsters
Technically also includes Call Lightning Storm. May be modified to include sonic spells like Shout.


Sorcerer Air Savant II
Prereqs: Level 12 Sorcerer, Sorcerer Air Savant I, Storm Manipulation V, Charged Spellcasting III, Deadly Shocks III, and any one of Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Focus: Evocation, or Lesser Dragonmark of Storm.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You have continued to focus your training on elemental mastery over lightning. You gain an additional +2 caster levels when casting air and electricity spells, increase the maximum caster level of these spells by an additional 1, but suffer an additional -3 caster level penalty to your acid and earth spells. Your electrical resistance grows to 10 points and you now bypass 10 points of electrical resistance of opponents. You can cast the Electric Loop spell as a spell-like ability. You also gain the ability to render an opponent vulnerable to electrical damage, an additional +2 bonus to the Tumble skill, and have a permanent personal Featherfall toggle.

Inherent Electric Loop
Benefit: You are able to cast Electric Loop as a spell-like ability. (Cost: 3 sp, 4.5 sec cooldown)
Personal Featherfall Toggle
Benefit: You glide slowly through the air, taking no damage from normal falls. (At will.)


Awaken Elemental Weakness: Electricity
Benefit: You are able to curse an enemy, increasing electrical damage they take by 15%. This effect stacks with itself up to five times. (Cost: 5 sp, 20 sec cooldown, 30 sec duration - refreshing a stack restarts its duration)


Okay, so at level 12 (max level we have info for).

You spent 14 APs and 1 feat to get here (we will give a pass on Maximize/Empower, as most Sorcs will take one/both anyways).

You are casting your Air spells at +4 caster levels, but not really, as most of them are capped out at CL10, so you are really casting them at CL12. Your Resist/Prot are capped out, and even bumped 2 CLs (that would do nothing for Resist, but guessing it should add 2x12 more pts to Prot).

You are casting Earth spells at -6 CL, so your Stoneskin is actually worse than wanding it. Flesh to Stone won't go through any SR at CL6. And you Resist/Prot Acid are CL6.

You can cast Shocking Grasp (1sp) and Electric Loop (3sp), which are affected by Metas. So, a touch 5d6 spell (improved to 7d6) and a ranged 5d6 spell (improved to 7d6).

You gain Electric Resist 10. Guessing this stacks, otherwise it is less than useless. And you cut through 10 points of Resist (kind of nice). Then you get "Awaken Weakness", which gets you 15% extra damage on a single target, unless it lives more than 20 secs..... (so on Raid Bosses, maybe, if it actually hits them) You can stack this for up to 75% extra damage (which takes 100 secs, unless you are stacking Sorcs of the same element.....).

Ok, compare this with an Archmage with Evocation Spec (arguably one of the weakest Archmage Specs).

Savant
17 APs and 2 feats, for 2 SLAs (1 touch/1 ranged) that do 7d6 before Metas/Enhancements, 10 resist and maybe extra damage on mob bosses.



Archmage
13 APs and 2 feats, for 3 SLAs (1 touch/2 ranged, all forc or untyped, so no resist except shield/nightshield) that do 5d4 and 7d4 before Metas/Enhancements, the 3rd SLA is 12d6 ranged untyped with no Metas for 1SP, also they can specialize in a 2nd school for another feat (they do have 3 bonus feats at this point) for another SLA, plus bonuses to DC.


Edit- So esssentially this is a weaker version of the Archmage Evoker (which is already subpar vs most the other Archmage alternatives).

[Requiro]

Arcane Prodigy sounds like a fair alternative to the Spell Foci.

That is good for All sorcerers... And I glad that it sound fair for you Eladrin...

...

...but not fair for Wizards

Wizards Archmages also want alternative (in AM prereq) in their Past Life Feat ...

[Nuckoholic]

Arcane Prodigy sounds like a fair alternative to the Spell Foci.

That doesn't solve the problem, because it's still a feat that you need to take. I think people were referring to the sorceror passive past life feat that you get for free. Also, it's worse than SF: conj or evo, which are bad enough choices on a sorc. I would propose that you just give free evocation focuses for sorcs...I mean, it wouldn't break the game, because 1 or 2 evocation DC is nowhere near as useful as 2 enchantment DC.

[Eladrin]

What have I misunderstood from those two statements.
A creature that is say immune to fire, regardless of the multiplier is still going to be immune to fire.

By blanket immunities, I assumed that you were talking about immunities such as the arbitrary death effect immunities in high level dungeons (since that's the typical usage of the phrase). Creatures that are immune to fire remain so.

[Ridag]

You get +4 to your chosen element and -6 to your opposition element at tier two, with +2 max caster level to your chosen element. It's expected that a dedicated <x> savant will pretend their opposition element simply doesn't exist, and fall back on one of the other elements or the force line when things immune to their chosen element appear.

Thank you, I transposed adding +2 to caster level and increasing maximum caster level by 1.

Yes you would have to pretend that the opposition element didn't exist, and with fire having the best all around damage spells in the game and water having the highest no save damage spell in the game that makes for some difficult choices.

Awaken Elemental Weakness multiplies the creature's inherent vulnerability (which typically starts at 100%). An immune creature remains immune (0 * 1.75 = 0), but a creature that starts at 200% damage will end up taking a whole lot of damage once the stack is complete.

I would say that a creature that starts at 200% damage wouldn't need to be weakened against said element at all. For one Sorcerer to stack it 5 times will take 1 minute and 40 seconds, so that would only happen on the longer boss fights.

Still looking forward to the T3 info...

[Trillea]

That is good for All sorcerers... And I glad that it sound fair for you Eladrin...

...

...but not fair for Wizards

Wizards Archmages also want alternative (in AM prereq) in their Past Life Feat ...

But wizards get more feats to begin with. I see no disparity here. Feats on a sorc are MUCH harder to come by.

[Missing_Minds]

And things with blanket immunities are still going to have blanket immunities.

That is grossly incorrect.

I'm going to call that the greatest tease of the day.

[Jaid314]

Archmage
13 APs and 2 feats, for 3 SLAs (1 touch/2 ranged, all forc or untyped, so no resist except shield/nightshield) that do 5d4 and 7d4 before Metas/Enhancements, the 3rd SLA is 12d6 ranged untyped with no Metas for 1SP, also they can specialize in a 2nd school for another feat (they do have 3 bonus feats at this point) for another SLA, plus bonuses to DC.


Edit- So esssentially this is a weaker version of the Archmage Evoker (which is already subpar vs most the other Archmage alternatives).

actually, this can be the archmage's *second* specialisation. no need to burn their primary focus on evocation unless they're going for cyclonic blast. and, in fact, no need to have *any* evoker AM enhancements until they hit 12, because they only really needed tier 1 which requires only a feat and archmage, no other enhancements.

[Scraap]

By blanket immunities, I assumed that you were talking about immunities such as the arbitrary death effect immunities in high level dungeons (since that's the typical usage of the phrase). Creatures that are immune to fire remain so.

This is good to hear.

On the spell pen bit, pre u9 announcement, I'd have pointed out the SP enhancement lines, since they don't (at time of writing) even require a feat...

With the new feat requirement, and the expanded ap expenditures, will we be seeing the costs of those lowered as well? That might help a bit, at least.

[Requiro]

But wizards get more feats to begin with. I see no disparity here. Feats on a sorc are MUCH harder to come by.

Savant: probably 2 feats
Archmage: min. 3 feats. probably 4-5

Sorc with PrE will have 5 free feats
Wizard with PrE will have 7 free feats.

But Sorc still get more SP, faster casting and half colddown - and they are much better then 2 feats and spell slots.

(...)

Archmage
13 APs and 2 feats, for 3 SLAs (1 touch/2 ranged) that do 5d4 and 7d4 before Metas/Enhancements, also they can specialize in a 2nd school for another feat (they do have 3 bonus feats at this point) for another SLA, plus bonuses to DC.

Please...

Wait for Tier 3 to compare. Archmage if want more after 12 level must pay in SP. And Wizards get less SP then Sorc.

Also - Archmage can't improve damage from their spells. Savant can.

[Missing_Minds]

That doesn't solve the problem, because it's still a feat that you need to take. I think people were referring to the sorceror passive past life feat that you get for free. Also, it's worse than SF: conj or evo, which are bad enough choices on a sorc. I would propose that you just give free evocation focuses for sorcs...I mean, it wouldn't break the game, because 1 or 2 evocation DC is nowhere near as useful as 2 enchantment DC.

Given the fact they never got the number of spells slotted in correct for sorc.. I'd be game for getting sf evo or conj for free.

[Raiderone]

Arcane Prodigy sounds like a fair alternative to the Spell Foci.

Maybe Arcane Initiate too?