Question about relative dps of Kensai vs Tempest

[Rodasch]

I'm currently working on levelling up my Ranger/Fighter Tempest/Kensai. I'm at 6 ranger 1 fighter so far and am trying to decide which will increase the dps more of the two PrE's...

Tempest II or Kensai II? I will be getting first rank of each PrE but am undecided on which to take 12 levels in to get rank 2.

Other possibly pertinent information:

Race: Elf
Stat focus: Str
Weapon: Scimitar TWF (with elven enhancements)

I'd love to hear from some people who have done the numbers on the two PrE's as I was unable to locate any solid comparative information when I searched, other than people saying Tempest 1 is usually all you need.

Thanks in advance for those who contribute.

[HGM-Chi]

It's pretty tough to beat the combo of power surge and fighter haste IV that comes with Fighter 12. It's pretty much the kind of speed and power combined that defines "opening a can of whoop-ass".

[Four20]

It's pretty tough to beat the combo of power surge and fighter haste IV that comes with Fighter 12. It's pretty much the kind of speed and power combined that defines "opening a can of whoop-ass".

no doubt there. I'm currently running the 12/8 fighter/monk and it is just silly with the increased attack speed of unarmed strikes.

when i hit both power surge and fighter haste 4 there's not much that I can't take down myself

[TheDearLeader]

It's pretty tough to beat the combo of power surge and fighter haste IV that comes with Fighter 12. It's pretty much the kind of speed and power combined that defines "opening a can of whoop-ass".

Agreed. Be it THF or TWF, both look impressive with Haste + Haste Boost.

[Cardtrick]

Another vote for Kensai II. Haste Boost 4 is fantastic, Power Surge is great (+4 to damage and attack rolls for 60 seconds, at least 7 times per rest), the extra +1 combat feat DC is handy (+5 with Power Surge), and the second tier of Kensai weapon mastery is just as good as the first.

In contrast, Tempest II is only okay -- an additional 10% chance of proccing offhand attacks and +1 to hit. It's not useless, but it just doesn't compare.

[Brennie]

More info on your build would be helpful.

What is you current dex? If it is less than 17 (or 15 if you have access to a +2 dex tome), I'd say go Tempest II / Kensai I and don't look back (since you won't have access to GTWF any other way).

12 levels of ranger has benefits beyond just DPS. Evasion, Full 30 resists, full Jump, 3 favored enemies, and fully flesh out Ranged advantage (Obviously not something you'll use all the time, but manyshotting a beholder with a paralyzer before engaging in melee, or working Lailats health down when she flies off to her ledge are never bad options), more spells and spell slots, SP, and some other benefits I know I'm forgetting.

That's not to say that Ranger 12 is better than Fighter 12, I'm just saying its good to look beyond just "Which one hits harder".

[Rodasch]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was leaning towards kensai II myself before I asked, but now it's definite.

As for the post about my dex and the other benefits of ranger levels, I've already accounted for evasion in the build, I'm going to take 2 levels of monk (and get 2 more feats!) 6 levels ranger, and 12 levels fighter. That will also boost the AC a little and help on saves a bit. The Dex is not enough to qualify for GTWF, but I think I'll be ok without it given the gains of fighter 12 (haste boost 4 and power surge, extra feats, more ranks of fighter strength, etc)

I'm not so concerned about the ranger spells, I only plan to use the buffs when a better option isn't available. The goal is a melee beat down artist with pretty good survivability, and who doesn't totally suck when forced to fire a bow.

At this point, my only real difficult decision is when to take the levels of monk...before kensai 1 or after? I think I might take them early since I can take power attack and toughness as monk feats then burn the fighter feats on the rest of the stuff I need.

[Brennie]

(...) The Dex is not enough to qualify for GTWF, but I think I'll be ok without it given the gains of fighter 12 (haste boost 4 and power surge, extra feats, more ranks of fighter strength, etc)(...)

Keep in mind that GTWF and Tempest II will add 30% offhand proc chance, which is roughly 10-15% overall DPS increase, depending on your strength. Power Surge and Haste Boost will definatly get you above 15% DPS boost when active, but they won't be active all the time (With Kensai II, they'll be active a cumulative 140 seconds per rest each).

Also, don't discount the ability to have several 12 minute long Rams Might's without needing to invest in a spellpoint item, versus needing one just to get off one or two 6 minute long ones. +2 strength and +2 damage per hit really add up, especially with 30% more offhand attacks!

[Noctus]

The Dex is not enough to qualify for GTWF,

Then save/buy/earn some TP and lesser TR so you have at least a 15 DEX.


A dedicated TWF melee without GTWF = gimped.


You will still be able to contribute, but your so much less than you could be if you corrected that mistake.

[Rodasch]

Then save/buy/earn some TP and lesser TR so you have at least a 15 DEX.


A dedicated TWF melee without GTWF = gimped.


You will still be able to contribute, but your so much less than you could be if you corrected that mistake.

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do. Isn't it 17 dex for gtwf? I've got 15 already (needed 13 for dodge to qualify for tempest, and ate a +2 supreme ability tome at 7th level)

[Desteria]

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do. Isn't it 17 dex for gtwf? I've got 15 already (needed 13 for dodge to qualify for tempest, and ate a +2 supreme ability tome at 7th level)

Yes 17 (base+tomes), this could include level ups but thise should be in str LRing to start with 15 DEX would let you keep the tome and have 17 for feat requierments, so stats somethign like 18 str, 15 dex, as much con as you can aford left over in like int for skill points on an Elf this wil be easy and cheap to do since you have +2 racial dex that 15 will only cost you 5 of your build points, where as most melles would have had to spend 8

[Kinerd]

Putting level-ups in Dex would be ok (while LRing would be much better). +1 Strength bonus, especially on scimitars, is not anywhere near as big a loss in DPS as ITWF compared to GTWF.

[elixer1]

My Vote is kensai, for all the points that have already been mentioned.

[LordPiglet]

I run a tempest I / Kensai II (36pt build)

I was going to go Tempest II, but decided to try something different and went Kensai II.

I am enjoying it now that I capped and got power surge. It's nice being able to run with power attack on in epics.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Another vote for Kensai II. Haste Boost 4 is fantastic, Power Surge is great (+4 to damage and attack rolls for 60 seconds, at least 7 times per rest), the extra +1 combat feat DC is handy (+5 with Power Surge), and the second tier of Kensai weapon mastery is just as good as the first.

In contrast, Tempest II is only okay -- an additional 10% chance of proccing offhand attacks and +1 to hit. It's not useless, but it just doesn't compare.

You're missing the +2 damage against all FE's and an extra FE (for a total of 3). Also, there is FE:damage III so actually you're comparing:

Kensai II:
+4 att/dam (7 minutes/rest) + haste boost IV + +1 att/dam, +2 seeker kensai weapon spec II + 1 fighter weapon spec I (level 8, available to ranger as well unless you splash monk or rogue)

vs

+10% offhand (bit over 5% extra DPS), +1 attack, +3 dam (at least for FE's) + haste boost III + level 3 ranger spells, level 11 resist energy (best you can get besides duration), +3 AC (can work well if you can splash monk as well), evasion (available to ranger 8, rogue 2, monk 2).

The tempest will have better vorpaling power with the extra offhand procs.

Tempest will have faster attack speed while under the affects of haste boost III compared to Kensai with haste boost IV.

Tempest will be better for soloing.

Kensai will have better all round DPS (better for epics), Tempest may have better DPS vs FEs (not sure on the math, better for raids).

Options:
12 ranger, 7 fighter, 1 monk/rogue
12 fighter, 6 ranger, 2 monk/rogue

Either way you want evasion, imo.

[Rodasch]

You're missing the +2 damage against all FE's and an extra FE (for a total of 3). Also, there is FE:damage III so actually you're comparing:

Kensai II:
+4 att/dam (7 minutes/rest) + haste boost IV + +1 att/dam, +2 seeker kensai weapon spec II + 1 fighter weapon spec I (level 8, available to ranger as well unless you splash monk or rogue)

vs

+10% offhand (bit over 5% extra DPS), +1 attack, +3 dam (at least for FE's) + haste boost III + level 3 ranger spells, level 11 resist energy (best you can get besides duration), +3 AC (can work well if you can splash monk as well), evasion (available to ranger 8, rogue 2, monk 2).

The tempest will have better vorpaling power with the extra offhand procs.

Tempest will have faster attack speed while under the affects of haste boost III compared to Kensai with haste boost IV.

Tempest will be better for soloing.

Kensai will have better all round DPS (better for epics), Tempest may have better DPS vs FEs (not sure on the math, better for raids).

Options:
12 ranger, 7 fighter, 1 monk/rogue
12 fighter, 6 ranger, 2 monk/rogue

Either way you want evasion, imo.

Nice breakdown and discussion. thanks for contributing. You've touched on something that I was contemplating anyway, which is whether the extra fighter feats (and monk feats) are worth losing the higher level ranger spells. Personally, FoM is a very powerful spell to have access to when soloing, as are the full elemental resist buffs. I'll work them both around in the planner and see what balance I can strike. As it is, I'm going to have to change my ranger's alignment if I want to take monk, I wasn't thinking when I made her and went chaotic instead of lawful.

[ArchStriker]

Kensei...... IMO

Evasion smashion, dps ftw. lol

[wax_on_wax_off]

Nice breakdown and discussion. thanks for contributing. You've touched on something that I was contemplating anyway, which is whether the extra fighter feats (and monk feats) are worth losing the higher level ranger spells. Personally, FoM is a very powerful spell to have access to when soloing, as are the full elemental resist buffs. I'll work them both around in the planner and see what balance I can strike. As it is, I'm going to have to change my ranger's alignment if I want to take monk, I wasn't thinking when I made her and went chaotic instead of lawful.

You only get FoM at ranger level 14 which would exclude rogue or monk splash.

Also, if you do lean this way you have to question what you really get out of 6 fighter. Another common build is 12 ranger, 7 rogue, 1 monk or fighter which is a very powerful build and one that I personally like a lot.

Also, particularly with epics the kensei will be better in the long run due to the ranger only getting comparable DPS against a few enemies (evil outsiders, undead and giants for instance).