A good character

[Sirea]

Codemasters FTL.

Even more of a reason why join date means squat.

[Raithe]

I don't know what's sadder, that the person with the 2006 join date has such a skewed view of the game, or that the people with the 2009-2010 join dates actually know more about the game than the 2006 person does.

Just goes to show you that join date doesn't mean a thing.

I'll add an off-topic comment from the peanut gallery to match the one above:

I'm actually fairly much in tune with those who say dump int or dump cha. They are usually right in their assessment of how the game currently works and their ideas make sense (until the developers decide differently, that is).

It just so happens that in this particular case, the peanut gallery is wrong. Dead from will save failure wrong.

[Sirea]

I'll add an off-topic comment from the peanut gallery to match the one above:

I'm actually fairly much in tune with those who say dump int or dump cha. They are usually right in their assessment of how the game currently works and their ideas make sense (until the developers decide differently, that is).

It just so happens that in this particular case, the peanut gallery is wrong. Dead from will save failure wrong.

My rogue dumped WIS. She still constantly gets spot checks. Your arguments are invalid.

Oh and by the way, one of the best items in the game for a rogue (or any other melee character for that matter) has Spot +15 on it:

[Ystradmynach]

Personally, I ideally would like to start out with 12 wisdom just so I can eat a +2 wisdom tome and save me an item slot for my ranger or paladin.

Depending on what sort of build you are going for, stat points might be too tight for that always be practical. Often though, you can make up whatever advantage you were going to get (and then some) with the slot you saved by not having to buff wisdom.

[Raithe]

My rogue dumped WIS. She still constantly gets spot checks. Your arguments are invalid.

Oh and by the way, one of the best items in the game for a rogue (or any other melee character for that matter) has Spot +15 on it:

We're actually talking about rangers and paladins in this thread. Yes, many will choose to wear Tharne's goggles. Some will not. Some of those rangers will have the ability to trapsmith. They may be able to put wisdom +6 on a greensteel accessory, cast wild instincts, and get by without a spot item.

Tip for noobs 12: Building your character around a specific game item is a recipe for disaster.

[Spoonman457]

To the OP don't listen to Raithe, the information he posts is flat out wrong, you can find resist 30 pots in random loot/breakables after about level 14, to get the equivalent spot from wis that a +15 spot item gives would require a wisdom of 40 (for a wis score of 15) not something any well played rogue/ranger/paladin is ever going to have, as strength, con and dex are much more important for them, as for sp on a ranger/paladin every 2 points is only = to 29 sp at level 20, where as every 2 con gives 20 hp at level 20, this makes con much more important than wisdom for any reason. And if you have a choice between raising con or raising wis, con is the only choice.

@ raithe my lvl 16 AA ranger can bark every party member and cast bark, rams, all resists and all protection and mass long strider on myself and still have more than 50% of my sp, more than enough to fully rebuff myself 2 times, which is much more than I have ever needed in any quest up to and including shroud. I never have a problem with spot and I started with a wisdom of 10, and it only gets buffed by a +6 item and +2 ship buff. anything more then 10 wisdom on any ranger/paladin is extremely bad advice as both those classes suffer from multiple ability dependency(mad) and do not have the extra points to wast on a stat that is at most fourth in the list of important stats for their class. a Ranger/pally that starts with 10 wisdom should have no problem hitting 750 - 800 sp at level 20.

Are you the player who's running around on thalanis with the 10/10 sorc/wizard LFM's that say the build is sorc for more sp and wizard for more spell versatility?lol

or the blogger thats made severl blog posts for their guild about how any cleric that puts any points into con is gimp and any rogue that is not a mechanic is gimp as assassins can't dps or do traps?

also Raithe people who have a lot of twink gear(raid/epic loot, +3 tomes etc.) in the bank should not assume that a new player has 36 pt builds or any tomes to add to their stats. You may have the ability to get max wisdom on a ranger/paladin with out gimping strength/con/charisma(paladin only)but the average new player wont have that ability, even with 32 pt. builds, and this is a 28 pt. build. front line melee with only 13 con, that can't be how you'd advise a fighter to build, is it?
and note Paladins are one of the top three DPS classes out there, they being in order 1. Rogue, 2. Barbarian, and 3. Paladin.

[Sirea]

We're actually talking about rangers and paladins in this thread. Yes, many will choose to wear Tharne's goggles. Some will not. Some of those rangers will have the ability to trapsmith. They may be able to put wisdom +6 on a greensteel accessory, cast wild instincts, and get by without a spot item.

Tip for noobs 11: Building your character around a specific game item is a recipe for disaster.

I'm not the one that started the discussion about rogues in this thread. But nice try trying to take the focus off yourself.

[Raithe]

I'm not the one that started the discussion about rogues in this thread. But nice try trying to take the focus off yourself.

My trapsmith is a ranger. Sorry you were misinformed.

[Raithe]

@ raithe my lvl 16 AA ranger can bark every party member...

Please refer to my "Please don't bark my caster" thread. It's in the specialist forum.

anything more then 10 wisdom on any ranger/paladin is extremely bad advice as both those classes suffer from multiple ability dependency(mad) and do not have the extra points to wast on a stat that is at most fourth in the list of important stats for their class.

I never said to make wisdom your highest stat. I am promoting keeping it high enough to cast spells with a simple +2 tome, so that if equipment should break for some reason you don't lose self-healing capacity. I rarely see a decent build that has more than 2 dump stats anyway.

[Spoonman457]

hmmmmm seems like Raithes never heard of a owls wisdom pot? with 10 wis and a pot a ranger and a pally can cast all their spells, and I have only had my wisdom item break once, in 16 levels, if you are not repairing between quests where items are taking damage (wisdom is only on necklaces, rings, head gear, and on some named items for other slots and there for have a lower chance of these items taking damage) than that's the players fault, not a reason to waste build points on it.

you should reread the OP and not be so full of yourself, the OP has a 28 pt drow THF Paladin with 13 constitution, and 15 wisdom, the suggestion was that they could/should have reduced wisdom and used the points to increase con, and you think that's a bad suggestion? and go on to suggest that the op should increase wisdom? which is what you have suggested, also this is a new player, they probably do not have any tomes in the bank. for a first life drow build 10 wisdom would have been good, and the extra 8 points they spent on wisdom should have been spent on con. as 13 con is going to give them a problem in a few levels.

[Krelar]

I never said to make wisdom your highest stat. I am promoting keeping it high enough to cast spells with a simple +2 tome, so that if equipment should break for some reason you don't lose self-healing capacity. I rarely see a decent build that has more than 2 dump stats anyway.

So a paladin would only need a starting wisdom of 12 rather than the 15 that the OP has.

12 is actually exactly what I started my paladin with.

I will say it was nice at the lower levels. Now that I'm at cap and have some decent gear (Lorriks's Necklace) I have way more sp than I know what to do with. If I'm only worried about myself I can go the entire dungeon without shrining while keeping all resists up as well as divine favor and zeal and still have half my sp left over.

I can't remember the last time I had any equipment break and even if it does I've never needed more self healing then lay on hands and Unyielding Sovereignty provide. If I did I have a giant pile of wands from turning in collectibles and my wisdom doesn't matter for those.

If I ever decided to reincarnate I'll probably drop the wisdom lower to 10 or even 8 now that I have a better feel for the class and better gear waiting.

[yawumpus]

Tips for noobs 7: Swapping items is often gimpville in itself. Yes, you can swap a spot item in if you already know that the trap is there. Ummm... how is that useful? You already know the trap is there - search for it. Spot is not a good option for swappable items. Disable, search, and open locks work decently, but many of the pros have those covered without needing to swap (which adds TIME to an otherwise easy run).

Obvious troll is obvious. Rogues should keep spot goggles on whenever not directly searching for/disabling traps. Once a trap is detected switch goggles to search, then disable goggles, finally returning to spot goggles. I am reasonably certain our troll has never played a non-gimped trapsmithing build in his life.

Note for OP. You can safely dump wisdom. You might want to keep it around 10 or so, if only to make it much easier when

[yawumpus]

Step one in creating/critiquing a Paladin: Consult [URL REF="http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542" ] Junts[/URL]

Tips for noobs 7: Swapping items is often gimpville in itself. Yes, you can swap a spot item in if you already know that the trap is there. Ummm... how is that useful? You already know the trap is there - search for it. Spot is not a good option for swappable items. Disable, search, and open locks work decently, but many of the pros have those covered without needing to swap (which adds TIME to an otherwise easy run).

Obvious troll is obvious. Rogues should keep spot goggles on whenever not directly searching for/disabling traps. Once a trap is detected switch goggles to search, then disable goggles, finally returning to spot goggles. I am reasonably certain our troll has never played a non-gimped trapsmithing toon in his life. Goggles typically have spot, search (on a Paladin, really, really?), disable (never on a non-evasion paladin), int bonus (never on any paladin), blindness ward (can be combined with spot, I prefer this combo on most of my toons), and named loot (trapblast being obvious, but not worth it for a Paladin. Visor of the Flesh Render Guards can always be swapped in and out). In other words, he might want to wear blindness ward goggles of the eagle, but shouldn't go broke keeping them current. If Tharne's drops for him, he (and any hypothetical ranger) should grab it and never swap it for anything (the ranger will likely swap to disable a trap).

Note for OP. You can safely dump wisdom. You might want to keep it around 10 or so, if only to make it much easier when you get spellcasting abilities to get the items you need. Also, while losing two build points will be painful by the time you can afford a +6 wisdom item, you might still appreciate the will save bonus.

On paladin skills, I have to say I like spot (but not enough to buy points on a paladin), think balance is overrated (note that on dex-dumped toons it might not be, expect to need a few points to get back up. I've been avoiding it on my TWF paladins). UMD should be taken first, and probably intimidate second. I would also avoid keeping balance too low.

Finally, if you can move you wisdom over to dexterity, you can probably become a two weapon paladin. If it is your first toon (or whichever toon unlocked drow is nowhere near cap), just following Junt's TWF Drow paladin build should allow you to scrounge up enough for a +1 dex tome by 9th level (I've managed to score this on unfunded permadeath toons by 6th level, and took ITWF instead of extend).

[xSeverinax]

If you're playing a rogue, having difficulty spotting traps, and decide that raising your wisdom is a better idea than equipping a spot item, you're doing it wrong. Also, if you're low on skill points as a rogue, you're doing it even more wrong.

Wisdom is pretty much the first stat to dump, always, unless you're playing a cleric or an evoker-build favored soul.

Wisdom was my only dump stat, started at 8, got a +2 tome at lvl 7 (no neg penalty to spot). Throw in a suitable wisdom bonus item and you are laughing. My char is doing Epic Von5 traps with a base wisdom of 10 and a +6 wisdom item, maxed out spot skill and spot enhancements.

[Adarro]

The heal skill actually helps me with rest shrines and gettin people up when I'm out of sp. Jump, balance, and UMD aren't important right now.

And Karell, you're right about the dr. I will change it if possible.

I guess I could've invested a little more into constitution but having good wis has its perks. And I will do my best to fix the con anyway.

Just want to say I hope you enjoy your Drow paladin, I'm not an uber builder, but pallies are one of my favorite classes.

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as a casual-esque player.
My play-style:

• Tactics trump gear.
• Tactics trump build.

While there are obviously niche exceptions, it has seldom proved untrue. I've seen melee's with silver weapons fail vs vampires and a spam fest of eternal wand of healing prevail. People with "Harry beaters" and poor tactics fare little better than the under-geared.
That said, your choices are more about convenience and / or bragging rights IMO. Better gear = quicker, better build = more efficient. Do a few 'nekid guild runs' and you'll see what I mean.

SKILL:
Pallies get almost nothing for skill points, and with INT as a dump stat, that becomes even more evident. Much like feats, they take a bit of consideration because you'll be hard pressed to have more than 1 or 2 skills raised to a decent level.

Jump - can make the difference between escaping or attacking the targets of your choice verses being pinned-in by trash while the caster strikes unchallenged. If you've not bothered with AC and joined the pajama wearing crowd, you may be fine. Wearing full plate however, I have noticed a difference and tend to carry a stack of 'jump pots' for an extra boost in addition to having some points in the skill.

Balance - I never seem able to put as many points as I'd like to in this one. Being a cross class skill that costs double the points doesn't help much. As this is also affected by the ACP (armor check penalty), it may be less of an issue to the non-full plate wearers. However, if you're trying to keep the attention on you, it's hard to be intimidating and dangerous while lying flat on your back. Just remember to hold 'shift' and block while you're prone until you get a better roll.

UMD - Some people swear by UMD and have it on every class / build / race. As a pally, you already have a lot of options to wand, so I'm not as adamant for this skill over some of the others. If I can pick it up 'too', then I will. However, it is a cross-class skill, so that doubles the cost when pallies are already starved for skill points.

Heal - The issue with the skill Heal is that it's only really relevant at shrines or at the side of a fallen comrade.

At shrines: While a stack of 'Cure Serious' pots can cost some plat when you're starting out, it's very reasonable to have some cure wands either cheap from a vendor or from collectable turn-ins (I sometimes even have that eternal cure wand from catacombs). So, while it may cost a little more, those points in Heal amount to a few charges from a wand you can get from a market place turn in.

In battle: As for aiding a fallen comrade, there are 2 circumstances... still in battle or after-the-fact.
The heal skill takes time, and you must be literally kneeling beside them, and can be easily interrupted. So in the heat of battle, our own cure spell, Lay on Hands or a wand whip will be better since you can do any of those from much further away with less chance of interruption.
If the battles over, then the skill makes some sense resource wise, but as the heal kits would take up the same inventory slot a wand would, why not keep it for a cure light / mod / critical / serious wand which can help in more situations? Alternately, keeping a set of recharging bracers of 'aid' or similar is also a solution.

I do appreciate someone trying to help the group by having this skill. One of the few times I get close to disgusted is when I see 4 players standing around an incapacitated cleric and not one of them can heal 3 points to get the cleric on her feat. I just find it's better to use items that cost very little plat than a skill that costs utility.

I haven't really looked for higher level items, but I'm fairly sure you can get some + Heal skill items to wear when you rest if you really want to get a passive boost for all your sleep-overs. Also, my pally shrines with a 'Magi' item to get some bonus spell points to buff at shrines.

Intimidate: Not for the squishy at heart I've waited a long time to have a pally with intimidate. With the U9 intim / hate / threat re-working its pretty interesting when combined with Divine Righteousness + incite weapon. If you're planning on tanking, this is a no-brainer. If you're on the squishy side, then you become a melee version of that low hit point ranger guy that multi-shots all the attention on himself but has nothing in reserve and dies a piteous and un-mourned death. (If you're doing an AC intim-tank, then some favor INT 13 for CE over WIS for the +5 AC feat: Combat Expertise.)

Concentration: Not mentioned in your quote, but my pallies almost never have the room for 'extend' and tend to be clicky intensive anyway, so having to recast Divine Favor / Zeal or failing that heal is... irksome to me. I'm sure many others just time their jump / cast better than I do.

STAT:
A note on the much-discussed WIS stat. I tend to view most things in moderation, and while dumping WIS to 8 is possible, it can be really annoying if you don't already have the at-level +WIS equipment / Tomes when trying to swap spells at a shrine instead of a Tavern or if you get dispelled etc.

Save-wise, most will saves have spell-resistance (SR), so as a Drow with innate, un-dispel-able SR, most holds / other will-based spells will slide right off you and never even make it to the will-save check.

So somewhere between 9 and up to 12 is where I put my WIS (usually 9). Again, I'm not talking about Epic - Raiding short-manned, just what I found really annoying during the leveling process. I can find 10 ML 6 +3 stat items vendored but on some servers, I'm lucky to find one +4 at some obnoxious price on AH.

Anyway, didn't mean to make this quite so long, but I hope that gives you a bit of perspective of some of the options out there. Paladin stat allocation will always be up for some debate because depending on the desired build / effect, any assumed 'dump' stat can go from relatively useless to absolutely critical for some threshold. (i.e. INT 13 for CE, DEX 15/17 for TWF / gTWF, CHA 14/16/18/20 for Divine Might).

Also, you may want to add which server you play on next to that cordial invite.

[yawumpus]

I do appreciate someone trying to help the group by having this skill. One of the few times I get close to disgusted is when I see 4 players standing around an incapacitated cleric and not one of them can heal 3 points to get the cleric on her feat. I just find it's better to use items that cost very little plat than a skill that costs utility.

Note that you can "heal" a fallen comrade faster with a bracelet of aid from the Korthos cannith crystal quest without the failure chance that an item of sustenance (or worse, skill points) has. Wonderfully useful items.

[Raithe]

Rogues should keep spot goggles on whenever not directly searching for/disabling traps. Once a trap is detected switch goggles to search, then disable goggles, finally returning to spot goggles.

Scenario I've seen played out a dozen times if not a hundred: Rogue does what you describe. Swaps in search goggles, finds trap, swaps in disable goggles and disarms. Patrolling mobs arrive and interrupt normal continuation of the sequence. Mobs are eliminated, party carries on... and the next elite trap smokes someone. Loss of 10% bonus, death item damage applied, healer spell points wasted, and resurrection sickness applied - all so the rogue can dump his wisdom and pour an extra 4 build points into strength and own the kill ...and death... counts.

However, you are right. This thread is not about rogues. Let's talk paladins:

Wisdom means:
1) More spell points. More healing, more zeal, more divine favor, more defensive buffs.
2) Longer lasting spell points that don't go away when he switches to useful gear.
3) Less reliance on gear slots or clumsy gear switching to cast spells in the middle of battle.
4) Better will save. Paladins probably have good saves, so every point might matter.
5) Depending on race, better spot. Hard to lead the kill counts if you run right by all those hellhounds.

Note for OP. You can safely dump wisdom. You might want to keep it around 10 or so, if only to make it much easier when you get spellcasting abilities to get the items you need. Also, while losing two build points will be painful by the time you can afford a +6 wisdom item, you might still appreciate the will save bonus.

You misunderstand the purpose of this thread. The OP is sharing a build that he likes. He wasn't really asking for your advice on the 15 wisdom his character already has at midlevel. But thanks for your attempt to make him feel bad about something with which he was previously pleased.

The peanut gallery is oh-so-helpful .

[Nysrock]

Hi

I just thought I'd talk about my best character I made: Staticshock. He's a drow paladin with a strong solo ability.

Stats
17 str (needed points for other stats; would be 20 otherwise)
10 dex (dump stat)
12-13 con (being drow does this)
15 wis (helps with spellcasting)
10 int (dump stat)
18 cha (important for lay on hands ability and other stuff)
He's lvl 6 right now. He uses a +2 flaming icy burst greataxe and does constant crit hits. His smite evil, on crits, makes him do 140+ dmg on hit. He can heal himself whenever needed and has a balance of stats to keep him strong. He has many form of DR like 3/Slash, Bludgeon, 3/-, and something else. He has drow benefits like sleep immunity, spell resist, and keen senses, plus paladin benefits like remove disease, disease immunity, boosted saves, and fear immunity. Pretty much the only drawback is his low con, but I'm gonna fix that. Because of his strong solo ability and super high heal skill, he's a valuable comrade to have in a group. Send him an invite sometime.


Good hunting

Glad you are enjoying your Paladin.

And don't worry about the big pileup that derailed your thread. Your build is your build just like your loot is your loot. Do with it what you may and have fun.

[lord_of_rage]

Talk to me more about your soling ability once you are doing Gianthold quests.

You are one of the last people to talk to others about bad paladin builds.

[Adarro]

Note that you can "heal" a fallen comrade faster with a bracelet of aid from the Korthos cannith crystal quest without the failure chance that an item of sustenance (or worse, skill points) has. Wonderfully useful items.

Very true, I mentioned "Alternately, keeping a set of recharging bracers of 'aid' or similar is also a solution." in the sentence above that quote. I didn't specifically name the korthos bracers because they have only one charge as opposed to the 3/3 or 5/5 charges I think you can find on others, but along with the curative cloak also available from Korthos it is certainly a beneficial item to have.