14 Rogue/6 Monk Input please

[Kimeni]

Goals:

A rogue for traps, however the rogue playstyle doesn't quite fit for me, though I love doing traps and picking locks. I do however, LOVE me some quarterstaffs. I am somewhat obsessed with monks. Thus:

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Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(6 Monk \ 14 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 19
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    22
Dexterity            13                    18
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         16                    18
Wisdom                8                    11
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 9
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 9
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 9
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 9
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 9
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    35
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         2                    26
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device        7                    33
Haggle               -1                     2
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  5                    35
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  6                    37
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         5                    31
Open Lock             5                    33
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                3                     4
Search                7                    31
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  2                     6
Tumble                5                    19
Use Magic Device      3                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Search I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 8 (Monk)
Enhancement: Static Charge


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 10 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock II
Enhancement: Improved Search II


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Stealthy


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock III
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock IV
Enhancement: Improved Search III
Enhancement: Improved Search IV
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III

As a side note, the tome would be at level 7, I just forgot to fix that.

Thrash this build, please.

[Ilklr]

First, I'm not sold on 14 rogue. That last level doesn't give you all that much. Perhaps 13/6/1 would suit you better.

I'm not sure about taking toughness x2.

Conceivably, you'll have a constitution of about 26. So your hit points on a 14/6 with 1 toughness feat will be:
84 Rogue
48 monk
20 HD
10 Draconic
45 Shroud
42 Toughness
30 GFL
160 Constitution
20 Minos
459+ easily.

I'd drop the second toughness and take Combat Expertise. You'll actually end up with some pretty decent AC. Imho, neither Nimble Fingers nor Stealth are worth a feat slot. You could actually drop both of these and pick up PA and CE, while keeping 2 toughness feats.

Imo, your starting int is a bit high. I'd be inclined to grab more dex for a little extra AC, and because dex will add additional damage.

You didn't take Power Attack, which is pretty much a must have for dps, especially on a two-handed build.

You don't get a prestige until level 11. While that is ok, I'm wondering if you'll want to reorder your progression to get thief-acrobat sooner. These types of builds rely on the prestige to avoid being subpar qs dps. What makes the stick build viable is the improved attack speed and damage on them. I'm thinking you won't enjoy a build that doesn't even get competitive until 11.

How dead set are you on Ninja Spy? You could actually go with more rogue levels for the skill points/SA damage, without losing much.

No offense, but your enhancements seem really off-kilter. What I'm inferring with your build is that you're worried about not being able to make your DCs. You shouldn't worry too much about that. Even rogues who invest much less into their skills make most of them. Imo, you're sacrificing way too much in an attempt to avoid any possible chance of failure. I don't have a whole lot of time, but let me try to quickly throw a sample build together. I'll try to keep it as close to your build as possible.

EDIT: Sorry, I totally screwed the pooch on this one. In fact, what I did was so embarrassing that I'm not sure I want to share. Suffice it to say that I had multiple tabs with builds open, and that I'll have to redo this tomorrow.

Here is a link to a stick thread. It has the original Big F'n Stick build, the newer Ugly Stick build, as well as links to other useful threads.

[Geonis]

Rog 13/Monk 7 does serve a little better. 14 Rog does absolutely nothing for you. 7 Monk gives the self heal ability (not much, but it's free).

13/6/1 with Ftr, will give an extra feat, but on mine, I actually took 2xToughness since there was nothing else to take.

[Ilklr]

I also wanted to make a quick note about skills. Skills like balance, jump, tumble, etc. don't need max ranks, which will help cover a fighter level. Let's quickly, as an example, look at jump.

23 Ranks + 13 Strength = 36. You're already almost at the "soft cap" for jump. I understand that there is some appeal to having more than 40 jump (I do have an acrobat, afterall), but let's keep going. 36 + 4 prestige = 40 soft cap, as your base skill. 40 + 15 item + 10 prestige clickie + 30 spell = 95. Okay, I'm sure you can see we're getting ridiculous. And we haven't even added in GH and luck, which breaks the 100 mark.

Long story short, you can let your acrobat skills take a bit of a hit to keep max trapping/stealth/UMD skills, even with a fighter level.

[Ilklr]

Also, you want Adept of Wind. Wind Stance is what you'll be rocking most of the time. Acrobat alacrity, wind stance, and haste boost all stack. Plus, it gives you double strike. Wind Stance haste does not stack with the Haste spell, however. That's when you'll pop into Sun.

[Soleran]

Also, you want Adept of Wind. Wind Stance is what you'll be rocking most of the time. Acrobat alacrity, wind stance, and haste boost all stack. Plus, it gives you double strike. Wind Stance haste does not stack with the Haste spell, however. That's when you'll pop into Sun.

Yeah you should get to windstance 2 which would give you 5% doublestrike and if u can take opportunist feat that would give u 8% doublestrike, probably better then the str you would get from sun stance. Plus shadowfade on ninja spy 1 if you can afford it is probably the best defensive ability you can get for a rogue, 25% incorporeal stacks with blur for a win.

[Kimeni]

Awesome, thanks for the responses,

Yes, the order of my enhancements are a long ways off kilter. Sorry about that.

I like the idea of picking up PA if you don't think dropping toughness will get me a little low in hp.

I am not going to figure in having great gear for HP, I am notoriously fond of leveling, and many times lose interest in a character at cap.

If I did not take nimble fingers, you would assume I will have no problems with traps?

About wind stance... I already have a monk and a staff fighter. The focus here is traps, but obviously I don't want to be totally gimp on DPS. I would like to do something a little more different, and something seems very symetric about maxing my strength. Though I really like the numbers on those double strikes.

So, I guess what I am asking is if you think fire stance with as much strength as I can muster is vastly outperformed by windstance.

[Kinerd]

With 14 Intelligence, maxed skills, and the best pure (only skill) vanilla (not RR, not BtA) gear you can get at each level, you will not have a problem with traps of your level or even slightly above your level with exactly one exception in the entire game (that nobody really cares about). If you want to be sure, get a rank of Skill Boost and a Heroism clicky. Your Spot is the iffiest part, but you seem to be an experienced player so you probably can handle that.

You are not going to see a dramatic difference in DPS changing between Wind and Sun stance, but Wind stance will probably be superior for your build in most situations, including while hasted.

For me, I would keep the second toughness. I don't know how Ilklr has you at 26 Con, but I would only expect you to reach 22 without some grinding, which puts you down to 419 HP with the GS HP item.

I wouldn't bother with CE. You don't have the flexibility to punch up Wisdom, so your starting point for AC is something like:

10 base
1 halfling
7 dex
5 deflection
3 wisdom
3 natural
1 dodge feat
5 armor
4 shield
2 insight
=
41

It's not like you want to tank on this build anyway, so devoting a feat to cleave AC is probably not the way to go. With some gear grinding and in a party you can get into the 50s for sure, but I wouldn't bother.

[sephiroth1084]

Just as a quick note, I don't believe Rogue 14 gives you anything, which is why the typical breakdown for this kind of build is 13/6/1 or 13/7. That 1 level could be fighter for an extra feat and 1 rank of class Toughness, or...something else? Monks get some stuff at 7 (can't recall what) so that is also a viable split. 14 Rogue is just a crappy hit die and 8 skill points. Ranger would at least get you Bow Strength, +2 HP, and 1 Favored Enemy in exchange for 2 skill points.

[Ilklr]

I like the idea of picking up PA if you don't think dropping toughness will get me a little low in hp.

It depends. All of the HP gear (Minos is annoying to farm, but not difficult) is fairly easy to get except for the 45 from shroud. I think you should be ok, but if you do want the extra 22 hp, you can always drop Nimble or Stealthy instead.

[Ilklr]

This was posted while I was typing out a reply, so I'm piggy backing.

With 14 Intelligence, maxed skills, and the best pure (only skill) vanilla (not RR, not BtA) gear you can get at each level, you will not have a problem with traps of your level or even slightly above your level with exactly one exception in the entire game (that nobody really cares about). If you want to be sure, get a rank of Skill Boost and a Heroism clicky. Your Spot is the iffiest part, but you seem to be an experienced player so you probably can handle that.

/agree. If you want a number, you'll likely be pushing around 60 Disable at level 20.

You are not going to see a dramatic difference in DPS changing between Wind and Sun stance, but Wind stance will probably be superior for your build in most situations, including while hasted.

There will be a dramatic difference while not hasted. 10% boost to attack speed and 5% double strike offers so much more than extra ki and +1 to hit. While hasted, it will be much closer, but I'd say wind still wins out.

EDIT: I forgot he's a THF build; sun also therefore gives +1 damage over wind. Still, the difference is pretty big.

For me, I would keep the second toughness. I don't know how Ilklr has you at 26 Con, but I would only expect you to reach 22 without some grinding, which puts you down to 419 HP with the GS HP item.

I wouldn't bother with CE.

I agree about CE. Thanks for running the numbers. I was in a bit of a hurry last night, so didn't bother to run them. Also, AC is arguably becoming less and less important as time goes on.

As for 26 Con, I included generic buffs. As you can see, I didn't include buffs as separate in the hp calcs, I threw them in under con. 14 Base + 6 item + 2 tome = the 22 you came up with. You can easily come up with at least 4 more: exceptional, ship, rage, madstone (or double madstone), blood rage, yugo...

What I listed gives a possible score of 36. I'm sure you can see that assuming a con of 26 is quite reasonable.

All of that said, I agree to keep the toughness. You can never have too many hit points. To be honest, when I read it the first time, I was in a bit of a hurry and thought it had to go. But as you pointed out, he can let CE go with a clear conscience instead.

[Kimeni]

Fantastic, now that's some great input, thanks everyone. Sometime, when I don't have to get up in a few hours I will fix that build and make it 13/7.

I appreciate the applied experience.

[hu-flung-pu]

Just an alternative...

You could go Monk Ninja Spy 13/Rogue mechanic 7.

Maxing out concentration, search and DD on your rogue levels.

While giving you both ninja spy PrE's, a consistant 250 damage double attack, and the ability to do traps with lots of backstab damage wielding short swords or bare knuckle brawling as the situation demands.

[unbongwah]

If you haven't already checked it out, look at the Big F'n Stick build. Rogue 13 / monk 7 (or monk 6 / ftr 1) is the usual advice for a rogue-monk staff build. I would lower INT at least 2 pts for max STR and maybe a couple more pts into WIS. As others stated, you want Wind-2 stance for the double-strike & speed (when not Hasted); fortunately DEX 12 + 2 tome is enough to get it.