Defender of Siberys build --- need help

[AylinIsAwesome]

Alternatively, 12 DEX + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 ship buff or Exceptional DEX (e.g., epic tier-3 Swashbuckler); or 11 DEX + 1 human enh + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 ship buff or Exceptional DEX. That would free up 2 or 3 precious build pts for, e.g., extra CHA.

I would recommend base stats 15 / 12 / 14 / 12 / 8 / 16 or 16 / 11 / 14 / 11 / 8 / 16 (depending on tomes & enhs) with all lvl-ups into STR; +2 CHA tome for Divine Might III (pray for +4 someday); +2 DEX tome for +1 AC; +1 or +2 INT tome for CE. Also consider ftr 2 splash for two extra feats, free tower shield prof, and +1 STR enh, but at the loss of capstone DPS. As for the THF feats, I recommend all or none.

That's probably also good, though my preference is to have the DEX without needing ship buff (since I hardly ever get them) or that shield (I don't know if the OP has one/can get one, and I also like to use a two-hander when possible).

Thanks for pointing that out though.

[unbongwah]

Here's my attempt at a human pure pally DoS tank:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 235 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            11                    14
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

A few comments:

Tomes: The +4 CHA tome is admittedly something of a pipe dream given its incredibly low drop rate, but the +2 tomes should be reasonable (by usual DDO grinding standards, at any rate ). The +4 CHA is only necessary for Divine Might IV pre-req, which is not essential to this build, IMHO. Furthermore, the +2 INT tome is the only one which needs to be taken ASAP for the skill pts & CE pre-req; the rest can be delayed until later if need be.

Feats: the must-haves IMHO are Toughness, PA, Imp Crit Slash, and CE; beyond that you have some tough choices. I went for the extra DPS from THF chain plus Extend for longer Zeal, on the presumption that DPS is always your first priority. But other options include the Stunning Blow (keep a Stunning maul like Ratkiller handy when you need it), Intim boosts (SF Intim, Bullheaded, Sentinel DMs), khopesh (higher DPS when S&B, otherwise use scimitars - epic Brigand's Cutlass seems rather nice to me despite neg lvl), etc.

Enhs: unsurprisingly these are really tight. Apart from the DoS pre-reqs, I tried to find a balance between DPS, AC, Intim, and HPs.

Gear: for AC tanking I was thinking of the tier-3 Epic Swashbuckler I linked earlier (AC 8, Superior Parrying, +2 exceptional DEX); plus either epic Cavalry Plate Aylin mentioned or epic Red Dragonplate, either of which will hit MDB 6 w/Nimbleness slotted. But I'm still learning how to gear tanks, so if someone has better suggestions, post away.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Gear: for AC tanking I was thinking of the tier-3 Epic Swashbuckler I linked earlier (AC 8, Superior Parrying, +2 exceptional DEX); plus either epic Cavalry Plate Aylin mentioned or epic Red Dragonplate, either of which will hit MDB 6 w/Nimbleness slotted. But I'm still learning how to gear tanks, so if someone has better suggestions, post away.

That's what I plan to use (except the Cavalry Plate for obvious reasons). I think that shield is a really good one.

[unbongwah]

That's probably also good, though my preference is to have the DEX without needing ship buff (since I hardly ever get them) or that shield (I don't know if the OP has one/can get one, and I also like to use a two-hander when possible).

I figured since most people list their "when the stars are aligned" max AC potential - like the paladin who "just happens" to have a max AC aura standing next to you - it was worth pointing out that alternative, since this build obviously needs every stat pt it can squeeze out.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I figured since most people list their "when the stars are aligned" max AC potential - like the paladin who "just happens" to have a max AC aura standing next to you - it was worth pointing out that alternative, since this build obviously needs every stat pt it can squeeze out.

Yeah, I know Fighter tanks can technically reach a higher AC...

But I've never been in a group with both a Fighter tank and a Paladin tank for that to happen.

[theboatman]

I'm kind of at a loss with some of these feat combinations in builds...

For example, why take the whole THF chain if you dont take bastard sword proficiency? THF gives you exactly 0 more dps while using a shield with a one hander, unless you use a B.Sword or D.Axe. You could use those three feats to get Dodge or Intimidate feats; things that will help your primary role.

Same goes for Khopesh, why take it if you don't take the whole TWF chain? Yes Khop is nice with a shield (although not as nice as one of the two in the previous example as boss fort increases past 0,) but you are wasting a feat when you have to pull out a two hander when you aren't using a shield.

Tower Shield proficiency can be gained with a Masters Touch scroll, if you have even a minimal umd investment, or have a friendly bard.

I really don't know why there is this double standard in the community. DPS build characters are 'horribly gimped' and 'worthless' if they sacrifice anything at all to provide more depth (and god forbid they have to take off their epic claw set when they outgear the tank,) yet Defender build's often lose their ability to defend in the name of slightly more dps.

Defender characters of any flavor are hard to build and outfit; Paladins are particularly tough, as they are one of the most M.A.D. classes in the game. I'm not trying to preach, as anyone interested can browse some of my other posts on tanking subjects, but I would strongly suggest you examine the reasons you want a paladin defender, and what you are trying to accomplish with the build; fill out these goals first, then flesh out the secondary functions with what meager resources you have left. Doing it the other way around doesn't work out quite as well.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'm kind of at a loss with some of these feat combinations in builds...

For example, why take the whole THF chain if you dont take bastard sword proficiency? THF gives you exactly 0 more dps while using a shield with a one hander, unless you use a B.Sword or D.Axe. You could use those three feats to get Dodge or Intimidate feats; things that will help your primary role.

If they're taking Khopesh prof instead, the player may have more Khopeshes to hand down, might prefer the graphic, or whatever. The THF chain still increases DPS when you need to act as a DPS character over twitching, especially if the player can't twitch at 100% (almost no one can).

Same goes for Khopesh, why take it if you don't take the whole TWF chain? Yes Khop is nice with a shield (although not as nice as one of the two in the previous example as boss fort increases past 0,) but you are wasting a feat when you have to pull out a two hander when you aren't using a shield.

Khopesh gives you the best one-handed DPS for the least investment. It costs you one feat, as opposed to the four it would take for a B-sword + THF chain combo. That makes it particularly good for feat-starved characters.

You can still fight with a two-hander by twitching, and not lose much DPS at all.

[Ralmeth]

Here's my attempt at a human pure pally DoS tank:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 235 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            11                    14
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

A few comments:

Tomes: The +4 CHA tome is admittedly something of a pipe dream given its incredibly low drop rate, but the +2 tomes should be reasonable (by usual DDO grinding standards, at any rate ). The +4 CHA is only necessary for Divine Might IV pre-req, which is not essential to this build, IMHO. Furthermore, the +2 INT tome is the only one which needs to be taken ASAP for the skill pts & CE pre-req; the rest can be delayed until later if need be.

Feats: the must-haves IMHO are Toughness, PA, Imp Crit Slash, and CE; beyond that you have some tough choices. I went for the extra DPS from THF chain plus Extend for longer Zeal, on the presumption that DPS is always your first priority. But other options include the Stunning Blow (keep a Stunning maul like Ratkiller handy when you need it), Intim boosts (SF Intim, Bullheaded, Sentinel DMs), khopesh (higher DPS when S&B, otherwise use scimitars - epic Brigand's Cutlass seems rather nice to me despite neg lvl), etc.

Enhs: unsurprisingly these are really tight. Apart from the DoS pre-reqs, I tried to find a balance between DPS, AC, Intim, and HPs.

Gear: for AC tanking I was thinking of the tier-3 Epic Swashbuckler I linked earlier (AC 8, Superior Parrying, +2 exceptional DEX); plus either epic Cavalry Plate Aylin mentioned or epic Red Dragonplate, either of which will hit MDB 6 w/Nimbleness slotted. But I'm still learning how to gear tanks, so if someone has better suggestions, post away.

As usual, this looks pretty good. The only thing I would tweak on the enhancements would be to pick up Human Improved Recovery 1, instead of 2 ranks in intimidate. With a +15 intimidate item and max ranks in intim, you should be able to hit all trash with no problem, so I don't think this will be missed. Also, until you get that +4 charisma tome those APs could go into Human Improved Recovery II.

As for your dex score, I think the question anyone should ask themselves is what final armor are they planning on so they can calculate their max dex bonus? Do they have the Epic Cavalry plate from the event, or did they role up this character afterwards? Do they plan on going for Epic Red Dragonplate, or are they more of a casual player and want to end at Dragontouched Plate? Do they plan on TRing shortly after hitting 20th? At least with LR as an option it's not such a big deal, but this will affect someone's starting dex.

[AylinIsAwesome]

As usual, this looks pretty good. The only thing I would tweak on the enhancements would be to pick up Human Improved Recovery 1, instead of 2 ranks in intimidate. With a +15 intimidate item and max ranks in intim, you should be able to hit all trash with no problem, so I don't think this will be missed. Also, until you get that +4 charisma tome those APs could go into Human Improved Recovery II.

As for your dex score, I think the question anyone should ask themselves is what final armor are they planning on so they can calculate their max dex bonus? Do they have the Epic Cavalry plate from the event, or did they role up this character afterwards? Do they plan on going for Epic Red Dragonplate, or are they more of a casual player and want to end at Dragontouched Plate? Do they plan on TRing shortly after hitting 20th? At least with LR as an option it's not such a big deal, but this will affect someone's starting dex.

Well, the event is coming back, so for now, aiming for the Epic Cavalry Plate is still ok.

[theboatman]

I understand the issue of already having weapons made influencing the build, but I didn't see this referenced in the op.

Khopesh gives you the best one-handed DPS for the least investment. It costs you one feat, as opposed to the four it would take for a B-sword + THF chain combo. That makes it particularly good for feat-starved characters.

This is what I take offense at. It simply isn't true. Bastard Sword only costs one feat as well; the THF chain only increases its effectiveness. Yes base glancing damage isn't much, but it's more than the 0 that Khops get. And since this thread is about Defenders, those coming here for information would be well informed to know that the extra crit multiplier of a Khopesh loses its advantage very rapidly against bosses with fortification (you know, the kind that Defender characters are built to handle,) while the increased base damage of the B.Sword loses nothing.
Im not saying that Khopeshes are bad weapons. I'm simply stating (yet again) that they are subpar weapons for Defenders unless they are taken in conjunction with the TWF chain.

[Ralmeth]

For example, why take the whole THF chain if you dont take bastard sword proficiency? THF gives you exactly 0 more dps while using a shield with a one hander, unless you use a B.Sword or D.Axe. You could use those three feats to get Dodge or Intimidate feats; things that will help your primary role.

I'm almost always in DPS mode on my Pally tanks (i.e. THF or TWF mode), so putting feats into THF is a helpful option (it's not the only option, but it is a solid option to increase your DPS most of the time). Also, bastard swords are horrible and not worth a feat. If you're in S&B mode all of the time, then you are gimping yourself as S&B DPS is horrible. Don't get me wrong, I love having the option of dropping into S&B tank mode and tanking things when things get rough. The trade-off that a Pally DoS needs to make is to sacrifice the very highest tier DPS available to them (i.e. Divine Sacrifice III, Exhalted Smite III & IV, Divine Might IV unless you get that +4 charisma tome) and put those APs into DoS and your defensive auras instead. You're still going to want to be in DPS mode most of the time, but when things get rough a DoS is going to tank while a Knight of the Chalice might stay in DPS mode.

Same goes for Khopesh, why take it if you don't take the whole TWF chain? Yes Khop is nice with a shield (although not as nice as one of the two in the previous example as boss fort increases past 0,) but you are wasting a feat when you have to pull out a two hander when you aren't using a shield.

I struggle with this one myself on my THF/tank build. Khopesh will give you better DPS for when you are hate tanking...as a DoS in my mind your job is to take on the biggest, baddest red names that are out there and khopesh will help you to do that. However as most of the time I'm in THF DPS mode it seems a little wasted. On my TWF Pally tank build khopesh is awesome!

[Ralmeth]

Well, the event is coming back, so for now, aiming for the Epic Cavalry Plate is still ok.

Is it? Sweet! I didn't get enough time to finish my Epic Cavalry Plate. Didn't they say later in the year, though? I want to run the Cove now!

[unbongwah]

Yeah, I know Fighter tanks can technically reach a higher AC...

Yeah, every time I see someone include a max pally AC aura in their AC calcs, I wonder, "Exactly where do you find a pally like that when you need it?" Do people just keep `em in closets like Dinobots for when they need `em?

For example, why take the whole THF chain if you dont take bastard sword proficiency?

Because it still boosts your DPS in 2H mode, of course, which is what I presume most tanks spend most of their time doing. And technically you can still use a DAxe or Bsword even without the prof. if you can swallow the -4 to-hit penalty; AFAIK the prof. has no bearing on glancing blows.

You could use those three feats to get Dodge or Intimidate feats; things that will help your primary role.

That is certainly an option. This is a build where the feats are pretty tight, esp. if you want to stay pure pally, so you have to make some tough choices. I focused on DPS feats, in the belief that the main incentive to staying pure is for the extra DPS from the capstone, so why not max out that role?

The only thing I would tweak on the enhancements would be to pick up Human Improved Recovery 1, instead of 2 ranks in intimidate.

Yeah, I was on the fence about where to put my last few enh pts. There's a little wiggle room for stuff like that, but not much.

[Ralmeth]

I understand the issue of already having weapons made influencing the build, but I didn't see this referenced in the op.



This is what I take offense at. It simply isn't true. Bastard Sword only costs one feat as well; the THF chain only increases its effectiveness. Yes base glancing damage isn't much, but it's more than the 0 that Khops get. And since this thread is about Defenders, those coming here for information would be well informed to know that the extra crit multiplier of a Khopesh loses its advantage very rapidly against bosses with fortification (you know, the kind that Defender characters are built to handle,) while the increased base damage of the B.Sword loses nothing.
Im not saying that Khopeshes are bad weapons. I'm simply stating (yet again) that they are subpar weapons for Defenders unless they are taken in conjunction with the TWF chain.

On average a bastard sword is giving you +1 to damage on every swing over a long sword. IMO +1 to damage is not worth spending a feat. In most cases you should have a THF weapon out with power attack on...

[unbongwah]

After mulling over theboatman's feedback, I took a stab at a build which sacrifices a decent chunk of DPS (no DM IV, no pally capstone, no THF feats) for +1 AC (Dodge) and +11 Intim (Sentinel DMs + Deneith enhs + Bullheaded + SF Intim).

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Sentinel Defender
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 205 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 17
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            11                    14
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation III
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation IV
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III

I'm not sold on this being a good idea, mind you, much less better than my previous build. Just trying to prove that some of us are capable of thinking outside the usual "DPS tank" box.

[AylinIsAwesome]

This is what I take offense at. It simply isn't true. Bastard Sword only costs one feat as well; the THF chain only increases its effectiveness. Yes base glancing damage isn't much, but it's more than the 0 that Khops get. And since this thread is about Defenders, those coming here for information would be well informed to know that the extra crit multiplier of a Khopesh loses its advantage very rapidly against bosses with fortification (you know, the kind that Defender characters are built to handle,) while the increased base damage of the B.Sword loses nothing.
Im not saying that Khopeshes are bad weapons. I'm simply stating (yet again) that they are subpar weapons for Defenders unless they are taken in conjunction with the TWF chain.

I actually have time to sit down and do the math on this today.

I'll use Elite Horoth, who has 50% Fortification, since that's the hardest raid boss that would use a hate tank.

I'll also use the final stats and gear for my tank. And, for some added fun, I'll compare Epic Chaosblade to Epic Chimera's Fang, as those are the best examples of either weapon.

Finally, I will also show both of those with one proc of the new AoV PrE (-10% Fort, +20% damage from light/alignment damage). Even though we don't know what the proc rate will be yet, I feel comfortable assuming that one level of the debuff can be kept on bosses, especially since it has an upper limit of 5.


And, as always, if I make any errors please point them out and I will correct them.

Bastard Sword:

Base Damage - 2d10 + 6
Critical Profile - 17-20/x2
Glancing Blows - 1st and 4th swings = 50% proc rate, does not crit, does not produce special effects, requires stationary, 20% base damage
Special Effects - Shocking Burst (1d6 on-hit, +1d10 on crit), Maiming (1d6 on crit), Lightning Strike (2% chance of massive damage [100d10 = 550] on hit)

Khopesh:

Base Damage - 2d8 + 6
Critical Profile - 17-20/x3
Glancing Blows - NA
Special Effects - True Chaos (1d6 on hit), Anarchic Burst (2d6 on hit, 4d6 on crit)


Common effects:

Weapons of Good (3d6 on hit)
Divine Might 3 (+6 damage on hit)
Power Attack (+8 damage on hit)
Zeal (+10% doublestrike)
Epic Swashbuckler (+6% doublestrike)
Epic Bloodstone (+8 damage on crit)
Epic Claw Set (+4 damage on hit)
STR (+13 damage on hit)
BT (+6 damage on hit)
Divine Favour (+3 damage on hit)
Ship Buffs (+2 damage on hit)
Bard Song (+9 damage on hit)


*NOTE: The modifier used below represents the chance that each effect will be used. For example, for non-crit base damage, there is normally a 75% chance it will roll. However, since there is 50% fortification, half of the crits will roll normal damage, so the normal damage chance is 85%. Then with 116% doublestrike, it becomes 98.6% chance. Special effects that happen on a crit (such as maiming) still apply even if the base damage is rolled normally (to test go hit a zombie with a maiming weapon a few times).*

Chimera's Fang Equations:

Non-Crit Base Damage: 2 * 5.5 + 6 + 6 + 8 + 4 + 13 + 6 + 3 + 2 + 9 = 68 (.986 modifier)
Crit Base Damage: (68 + 8) * 2 = 152 (.116 modifier)
Glancing Blow Damage: 68 * .2 = 13.6 (.475 modifier)
Non-Crit Special Effects: 3.5 + 3 * 3.5 = 14 (.87 modifier)
Crit Special Effects: 14 + 5.5 + 3.5 = 23 (.232 modifer)
Lightning Strike: 550 * .02 = 11 damage (1.102 modifier)

Final Equation: .986 * 68 + .116 * 152 + .475 * 13.6 + .87 * 14 + .232 * 23 + 1.102 * 11 = 120.778 damage

Chaosblade Equations:

Non-crit Base Damage: 2 * 4.5 + 6 + 6 + 8 + 4 + 13 + 6 + 3 + 2 +9 = 66 (.986 modifier)
Crit Base Damage: (66 + 8) * 3 = 222 (.116 modifier)
Glancing Blow Damage: None
Non-Crit Special Effects: 3.5 + 2* 3.5 + 3 * 3.5 = 21 (.87 modifier)
Crit Special Effects: 21 + 4 * 3.5 = 35 (.232 modifier)
Lightning Strike: None

Final Equation: .986 * 66 + .116 * 222 + .87 * 21 + .232 * 35 = 117.218

So here we have the Khopesh dealing ~97% of the DPS that the B-sword does.


One level of De-buff:

Chimera's Fang Equations:

Non-Crit Base Damage: 2 * 5.5 + 6 + 6 + 8 + 4 + 13 + 6 + 3 + 2 + 9 = 68 (.9628 modifier)
Crit Base Damage: (68 + 8) * 2 = 152 (.1392 modifier)
Glancing Blow Damage: 68 * .2 = 13.6 (.475 modifier)
Non-Crit Special Effects: 3.5 + 3 * 3.5 * 1.2 = 16.1 (.87 modifier)
Crit Special Effects: 16.1 + 5.5 + 3.5 = 25.1 (.232 modifer)
Lightning Strike: 550 * .02 = 11 damage (1.102 modifier)

Final Equation: .9628 * 68 + .1392 * 152 + .472 * 13.6 + .87 * 16.1 + .232 * 25.1 + 1.102 * 11 = 124.913

Chaosblade Equations:

Non-crit Base Damage: 2 * 4.5 + 6 + 6 + 8 + 4 + 13 + 6 + 3 + 2 +9 = 66 (.9628 modifier)
Crit Base Damage: (66 + 8) * 3 = 222 (.1392 modifier)
Glancing Blow Damage: None
Non-Crit Special Effects: 3.5 * 1.2 + 2* 3.5 * 1.2 + 3 * 3.5 * 1.2 = 25.2 (.87 modifier)
Crit Special Effects: 25.2 + 4 * 3.5 * 1.2 = 42 (.232 modifier)
Lightning Strike: None

Final Equation: .9628 * 66 + .1392 * 222 + .87 * 25.2 + .232 * 42 = 126.115

And now the Khopesh is doing more DPS than the B-sword.


We, as players, are getting more and more effects to reduce the Fortification of enemies. First the Shintao Monk ability, and now this AoV ability. With every effect that we can apply to bosses to reduce their Fortification, Khopesh becomes better and better.

And really, either way the difference in damage is going to be almost negligible.

For a feat-starved build, whichever one is better depends on the makeup of your party. If no one in your party can apply any sort of Fortification debuff to the mob, then the B-sword is marginally better. But if you can, then the Khopesh becomes marginally better.

This is a case where neither weapon is "better" than the other one because which one is better changes with the situation. Really, the only time I can think that you'd be definitely better off using a Bastard Sword is if you can fit in all of the THF feats...which Pure Paladins can't often do. Builds like the OP's that wish to use Torc + con-opp in conjunction with Quicken + Maximize to self-heal just cannot afford those feats. Once we're in this situation, all it takes is for an AoV FvS to name the tank as her/his champion or a Shintao Monk in the party to hit the boss with Jade Strike for the Khopesh to become better.

Because of that, players that often pug raids are probably better off with the Bastard-Sword, since they cannot predict what their party members will be and thus cannot count on the debuffs being applied. But by the same toke, players in well-established guilds or players that raid with a set group of players all the time are probably better of using the Khopesh, since they can count on their party members to give the boss the relevant debuffs.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Is it? Sweet! I didn't get enough time to finish my Epic Cavalry Plate. Didn't they say later in the year, though? I want to run the Cove now!

From what I've heard, it's supposed to come back at the end of March. I'm thinking around the 26th, since that's the last weekend in this month.

Because it still boosts your DPS in 2H mode, of course, which is what I presume most tanks spend most of their time doing. And technically you can still use a DAxe or Bsword even without the prof. if you can swallow the -4 to-hit penalty; AFAIK the prof. has no bearing on glancing blows.

I read on the release notes when this came out that you needed to have proficiency to get the glancing blows.

And while theboatman is technically correct in saying that a B-sword will do more damage at 50% Fort, since we're starting to get abilities to reduce mob fortification, I wouldn't be surprised if having Horoth at under 20% Fort for a whole raid became standard. (Jade Strike + 1 level of the AoV debuff)

[theboatman]

While the Epic Chaosblade vs Chimera Fang is a fun comparison; its apples vs oranges. Chaosblade causes a neg level penalty for paladins, due to the alignment issue. Chaosblade also has more of its bonus effects that apply every hit; also consider the issue of someone that has taken the time to farm and craft epic chaosblades, they will probably not take Khop without taking the TWF chain, as they will be worthless if you spend most of your time in Two hander mode (as another posted previously.)

I personally, on my tank, am tanking 90% of the time. If i want to run epics, I have other characters, or Stunners/Woo Sticks I pull out. So I don't want to gimp my tank build by taking lackluster feats like Khopesh. Speculating about how fortification reducing abilities will work is pointless; we dont even know if they will work on red/purple names.

Before I get into numbers, I will correct your assumption of noTHF glancing blows:
1st and 4th attack, must be stationary, 20% base damage, 3% weapon effects (like holy or bleed.)
The 3% effects adds up to quite little damage, but it does add.

Greensteel B.S vs Khop: as greensteel seems to be the most common endgame weapon available to the population; dev's even consider it endgame.

to those that say glancing blows are only 1 point of extra damage on average; I ask how are your stats so gimped that it is so low? I tank with a greensteel bastard sword, I have Greater Two hand fighting. My glances average 20-25 points of damage per swing. I also get glances on the first, third and fourth from the greater feat. My math says, however, that if I were only getting 20% damage, I would still be getting 8-10 points of damage per glance.
Greensteel Khopesh: 1d10 base, 5.5 average
Greensteel Bastard Sword: 2d8 base, 9 average, glances (at 20%: 1.8 + 20% of strength/damage bonus)
The only way that Khopesh has any chance is from crit damage, which is mitigated by fortification.

I guess the real issue is my perspective: You are gimping a dps class (fighter/paladin) by taking the defender pre for either class. People that try to make up for being a defender by gimping their defender, just need to not make defenders. Yes, it is a niche build. Yes it has shortcomings to overcome. But penalizing the inherent build is not a way to do so. Taking dps feats for when you are not tanking; why build a tank in the first place? Taking dps feats for when you are tanking (hate threat) that spill over into when you are not tanking; win/win. Taking proficiency in a weapon because the cool kids say its better for their specialized dps builds that can take advantage of its properties; you are missing the boat, and again I say don't build a defender in the first place.

Good hate tanking is about consistent damage, amplified by hate gear. Bursty crit damage, while it looks pretty, does not a good hate tank make.
Some might argue that a defender build is a wasted slot, but it depends on the group composition. My guildies love 0 pot ToD runs when I tank. Oftentimes we bring one more dps than another group might because of the level of control that can be attained. Many a failed ToD run I have been in, on the other hand (or succeeded by using 10+pots, which is still a fail,) have been from a 'tank' dying due to not enough survivability, or losing aggro.

[AylinIsAwesome]

While the Epic Chaosblade vs Chimera Fang is a fun comparison; its apples vs oranges.

Not really; those are the best weapons of each type.

Chaosblade causes a neg level penalty for paladins, due to the alignment issue.

This honestly isn't an issue.

Chaosblade also has more of its bonus effects that apply every hit; also consider the issue of someone that has taken the time to farm and craft epic chaosblades, they will probably not take Khop without taking the TWF chain, as they will be worthless if you spend most of your time in Two hander mode (as another posted previously.)

Even if most won't do it, some will, such as me with my tank and Junts with his tank Jaerlach.

Neither of us have the DEX or the available feats for the TWF chain, or the THF chain for that matter.

I personally, on my tank, am tanking 90% of the time. If i want to run epics, I have other characters, or Stunners/Woo Sticks I pull out. So I don't want to gimp my tank build by taking lackluster feats like Khopesh.

I spent an entire post about how Khopesh isn't lackluster, so I won't reiterate it here.

Speculating about how fortification reducing abilities will work is pointless; we dont even know if they will work on red/purple names.

Except the Devs have already confirmed that Jade Strike will work on bosses.

The precedent is already there for AoV to work on bosses.

Even if it doesn't, Jade Strike alone does more for Khopesh than one level of the AoV debuff does.

Oh, and the other raid that uses a hate tank, Epic Chrono, the Epic Conjoined Abishai Devastator doesn't even have Fortification.

Before I get into numbers, I will correct your assumption of noTHF glancing blows:
1st and 4th attack, must be stationary, 20% base damage, 3% weapon effects (like holy or bleed.)
The 3% effects adds up to quite little damage, but it does add.

Magic effects don't start happening on glancing blows 'til you start getting the THF feats.

Greensteel B.S vs Khop: as greensteel seems to be the most common endgame weapon available to the population; dev's even consider it endgame.

Why are we limiting the use of Epic weapons?

With Epic Swashbuckler, there's now no reason to craft a Min 2 with Insight 4, so 'till an Epic weapon is acquired Holy Sword is ok to use, since it's about 99% of the DPS. Why waste the larges on a weapon that's only getting limited use and only marginally better?

to those that say glancing blows are only 1 point of extra damage on average; I ask how are your stats so gimped that it is so low? I tank with a greensteel bastard sword, I have Greater Two hand fighting. My glances average 20-25 points of damage per swing. I also get glances on the first, third and fourth from the greater feat. My math says, however, that if I were only getting 20% damage, I would still be getting 8-10 points of damage per glance.[/quote]

Without the feats, it's 20%. The feats increase the damage done by glancing blows, and increase the chance of magical effects.

Greensteel Khopesh: 1d10 base, 5.5 average
Greensteel Bastard Sword: 2d8 base, 9 average, glances (at 20%: 1.8 + 20% of strength/damage bonus)
The only way that Khopesh has any chance is from crit damage, which is mitigated by fortification.

Even at 50% Fortification, both weapons will still crit. Just not at the full 20%.

I guess the real issue is my perspective: You are gimping a dps class (fighter/paladin) by taking the defender pre for either class. People that try to make up for being a defender by gimping their defender, just need to not make defenders. Yes, it is a niche build. Yes it has shortcomings to overcome. But penalizing the inherent build is not a way to do so. Taking dps feats for when you are not tanking; why build a tank in the first place? Taking dps feats for when you are tanking (hate threat) that spill over into when you are not tanking; win/win. Taking proficiency in a weapon because the cool kids say its better for their specialized dps builds that can take advantage of its properties; you are missing the boat, and again I say don't build a defender in the first place.

You still haven't shown how Khopesh is "gimp". Without the THF feats, it comes close and can even surpass a B-sword in the right circumstances. Repeating that this isn't the case over and over again won't make it any truer.

Good hate tanking is about consistent damage, amplified by hate gear. Bursty crit damage, while it looks pretty, does not a good hate tank make.

If we're going to ignore "bursty" damage, then we should also ignore the Lightning Strike on the Chimera's Fang, since it's proc rate is far lower than the number of crits you'll get in 20 swings, even at 50% Fort. Without that damage, then the Epic Chaosblade pulls much farther ahead of the Epic Chimera's Fang.

Some might argue that a defender build is a wasted slot, but it depends on the group composition. My guildies love 0 pot ToD runs when I tank. Oftentimes we bring one more dps than another group might because of the level of control that can be attained. Many a failed ToD run I have been in, on the other hand (or succeeded by using 10+pots, which is still a fail,) have been from a 'tank' dying due to not enough survivability, or losing aggro.

This doesn't have anything to do with Khopesh v. Bastard Sword.

[unbongwah]

Aaaaand this is why I try to avoid "max DPS" arguments.

For me, "is it max DPS?" is a boring question, because so much of it is situational depending on gear, build, what you're fighting, etc.; furthermore, it leads to cookie-cutter-itis based on whatever is the minmaxed flavor du jour. All I care about is "is it good enough?" As in: is it good enough DPS, hate, and/or Intim to hold aggro? Is it good enough AC & HPs & DR that I won't get splatted faster than the healers can keep me up? In short: is it a good enough build that I can help my party win, ideally without anyone getting killed? If the answer is "yes," I don't really sweat the rest.

I guess if you're trying to minmax your character's performance for a handful of endgame boss fights it makes sense to crunch numbers like that, but...well, that just seems really really dull to me. If I wanted to do math formulas in my spare time, I would've gone to grad school.