Keep Tomes when TRing

[Chai]

Of course it's my opinion. What else could it possibly be? And I would love to see some arguments on why it isn't a good game design. I haven't. All I see are people beholden to minutia of lore someone created to serve a game mechanic that does not make sense in DDO.

You see me, justifying it from the business perspective, which obviously cant be refuted as irrelevant.

If +2 store tomes are the good money maker I suspect they are, then adjusting a game mechanic that would lessen the sale of them would be frowned apon as a for profit business.

Arguing how "magic should work" is pointless. There's no real basis of discussion for any of it. On the other hand, how a game plays, what impact it has on player's behaviors, is eminently real, predictable, and analyzable.

The basis of discussion is the rulebooks, and citing precidence for how similar magic works in D&D. Its a consumable one shot item, that works like other consumable one shot items. You were perfectly ready to cite all the precidence you could get your hands on right up to and until you realized that most of it does NOT support the stance you are bantering, in which case you declared all precidence derived from game guides and rules irrelevant.

And I've already outlined how the devs could implement this with basically no loss of +2 tome sales. .

No, you did not. What you did outline would certainly impact +2 tome sales, because any of those people who would have bought a +2 store tome who are now getting their farmed +3 or +4 tome perminently bestowed apon them would still not buy from the store, resulting in lost revenue.

Simply assuming that they all would not buy tomes from the store because they are quality players does not work in the business world where real money talks. You have to show your work to make these types of initiatives pass, which includes demographics that support that 1337 players dont buy +2 tomes from the store. I would love to be a fly on the wall at this meeting, heh. "But sir / maam, all the uberleet® players dont buy +2 tomes anyhow, so we have complete segregation of the population between those who deped on store loot and those who simply dont buy it." LOL I see the same Vets who are premium try to banter this daily also banter that they shouldnt be looked at as anything less than full VIP because they spend the same or even more money in the store as a full VIP does to play each month. Trying to have our cake and eat it too here I see.....

My stance is about game design, and game design alone. I reject all lore and literature as irrelevant to that stance, regardless of whether it supports it or not.

Looks to me like you were completely willing to cite precidence to lore and rules right up to the point where you realized that 90% of it or so would support those who disagree with this proposal. Now you reject it. It all just magically doesnt count, heh.

I think you'll find that in the majority of literature, books do not fade when read, even magic ones. Have I cited this and stated that my stance is correct because that's just how books work? No. And I won't. I argue based on game mechanics.

A tome is not a book, its a one shot consumable magic item that confers its ability increase then fades away, like a scroll. Irrelevant precidence? I think not. Magical items that have a single use then disappear have a HUGE precidence in D&D, -AND- in DDO. This precidence isnt something to ignore simply because it disagrees with what you are proposing. I have seen no good refutation to this, which is why I have not been convinced as a player as of yet. Declaring it irrelevant is not convincing.

[Teharahma]

not when they're selling +1 and +2 tomes in the DDO Store

Like it was said. It only applies for +3 and +4.

[unfiguroutable]

Not keeping tomes keeps alot of people of TRing.

this is the answer to the OP.

[notforyou]

or how abouts depending on the strength of the tome u've used u'd get a +1 at lvl 3, +2 at lvl 7,+3 at lvl 11 and +4 at lvl 15 (non-stacking of course). so if u used a +2 in a previous life u'd get a +1 at lvl 3 and an additional +1 at lvl 7

[doubledge]

or how abouts depending on the strength of the tome u've used u'd get a +1 at lvl 3, +2 at lvl 7,+3 at lvl 11 and +4 at lvl 15 (non-stacking of course). so if u used a +2 in a previous life u'd get a +1 at lvl 3 and an additional +1 at lvl 7

this. /signed

[dkyle]

You see me, justifying it from the business perspective, which obviously cant be refuted as irrelevant.

"Would Turbine be willing to do it?" is a separate issue from "Is this a good game mechanic?". I've seen nothing to address the later.

And making a good game is simply a sound business decision. Keeping people playing is an investment in future earnings. Ignoring that in an attempt to wring every cent out of your customers you can in the short term is a recipe for failure in the long term.

The basis of discussion is the rulebooks, and citing precidence for how similar magic works in D&D. Its a consumable one shot item, that works like other consumable one shot items.

And I still maintain that there is no "precedence" in D&D lore. It's all suggestions, subject to the whims of the DM.

You were perfectly ready to cite all the precidence you could get your hands on right up to and until you realized that most of it does NOT support the stance you are bantering, in which case you declared all precidence derived from game guides and rules irrelevant.

What lore precedence have I cited, other than when people have specifically asked for some? I have only made analogies to other DDO game mechanics to support my own point of view.

No, you did not. What you did outline would certainly impact +2 tome sales, because any of those people who would have bought a +2 store tome who are now getting their farmed +3 or +4 tome perminently bestowed apon them would still not buy from the store, resulting in lost revenue.

I think you misunderstood my suggestion, or do you really think many people will be satisfied with their +4 tomes becoming just an ML15 +2 tome after they TR, when they could eat a +2 tome and regain the full +4 benefit they had before?

If so, then go a step further: require a +2 tome before saved-from-previous-life +3/+4 tomes can be applied. This would have absolutely no impact on +2 tome sales, except to increase them thanks to more frequent TRs.

Simply assuming that they all would not buy tomes from the store because they are quality players does not work in the business world where real money talks.

We don't have that data. Your suppositions regarding the monetary impacts of the suggestions in this thread have no more weight than mine. Logical arguments can be made for greater and lesser income, depending on the specific mechanics the devs might use.

Looks to me like you were completely willing to cite precidence to lore and rules right up to the point where you realized that 90% of it or so would support those who disagree with this proposal. Now you reject it. It all just magically doesnt count, heh.

If it appears that I have cited 3.5 rules/lore to support my position, it is only in direct response to the people who demand such things.

I don't consider any of that relevant, but understand that some do, and attempt to bolster my arguments by catering to them. But I consider such precedent irrelevant to my point of view. My arguments deals with logical game design, not lore.

A tome is not a book, its a one shot consumable magic item that confers its ability increase then fades away, like a scroll. Irrelevant precidence? I think not. Magical items that have a single use then disappear have a HUGE precidence in D&D, -AND- in DDO. This precidence isnt something to ignore simply because it disagrees with what you are proposing. I have seen no good refutation to this, which is why I have not been convinced as a player as of yet. Declaring it irrelevant is not convincing.

A tome is most certainly a book, unless you are completely redefining the term from what it means in English. If you say that a tome is by definition a one use book, because that's what 3.5 rules say, and then there can be no argument. But that's not a conventional definition of "tome".

There are one use magical items, and there are permanent activated magical items. There is precedence both for and against items that provide buffs being one use. The only reason to say "tomes are one use" is because that's what 3.5 rules say. They would be consistent with the rest of D&D magic either way.

There is a distinct lack of precedence for inherent bonuses going away on TR since that's solely a creation of DDO, and in fact weak precedence that they shouldn't, given the Reincarnation spell.

So basically, anything can be justified, and it's all arbitrary, because how magic works is entirely arbitrary. Hence why I consider lore arguments useless here.

[Bobthesponge]

This is a completely arbitrary mechanism based on the realities of PnP D&D game design.

DDO is different a different game, with different realities. The lore can change to adapt.

You contradict yourself, sir. First you say it is completely arbitrary then you say it is based on PnP. The fact that it is based on PnP, and in PnP a tome loses all magical abilities after being used ONCE, should carry quite a bit of weight.

Except that every real-world concept of Reincarnation, and even the Reincarnation spell in D&D PnP, has the same soul coming back in a different body. And I don't think it's a stretch to say that a soul is essentially "the person", as souls are usually thought of.

The tome can enchant the soul, or the tome can simply not be consumed. Either are perfectly logical ways magic could work to support tomes remaining through TRs. Arbitrary lore is not a reason to dismiss superior game design.

Agreed it is the same "soul" that is resurrected. And if a tome enchants the soul then you might have a logical argument, but the tome mechanic makes no mention of a soul in either DDO or PnP. Changing the consumption mechanic of a tome changes the "lore" entirely. As stated above, the tome mechanic and process is not arbitrary but based on PnP. If you do not like the way tomes work that is your right, but that is how DDO and PnP both are played.

And I disagree that this is superior game design. You are essentially advocating to keep a stat buff in your next life. +3 and +4 are significant increases and should not be handed on from life to life but should be earned every time.

"Easy button" is all too often a term misused by people who have no good justification for opposing something. Citing arbitrary minutia of lore is not justification. Argue game design if you want to get anywhere.

That term arbitrary keeps popping up. This is a game and every game has rules. In fact, all games depend on these rules. Calling them arbitraty doesn't change the fact of their existence. Is it arbitrary that we (virtually) roll a 20sided die to determine to-hit? Why not d10? or d100? or d23,773,216? Is it arbitraty in baseball that you only get three strikes? Is it arbitrary that a foul ball counts as a first or second strike but not a third? Is it arbitrary in soccer that you can't use your hands? Is it arbitrary that a goalkeeper can? Is it arbitrary in gridiron football you can pass the ball forward but in rugby you can't? You can argue that all rules of all games are arbitrary, but that is how the games are played.

If keeping tomes across TR is "easy button", then so is keeping BtC loot. Period. There is no logical distinction.

The logical distinction between BTC items and tomes is this: a BTC item is just that: an item. It has a physical presence, size, weight, dimension. In DDO a tome is destroyed when it is read, so there is no item to pass on. In PnP the tome still exists but has no magic so what good would rereading it be?

It is an easy button. And an illogical one to boot.

[Impatiens]

If they have demographic information to support this they might move on it. I wonder what the dollars comparison would be for people buying +2 tomes plus people buying TRs as it is now -vs- people buying tome sets in the store (less) plus people buying TRs (more) if this proposal saw the light of day.

If I was in the decision making chair for this you would have to speak pretty good numbers-ese to convince me. I am banking on the assumption that +2 store tomes sell well. If this is the case, convincing someone in the decision making process to create a situation that takes away from already good money making mechanics for the possability to make it back and then some on something else would be a hard sell. Those projections better look stellar, heh.

If the concern is over money lost on the sale of +2 tomes, and I can understand that, it could only apply to BtC or BtA +3 and +4 tomes as others have suggested and not to unbound +1s and +2s. I don't really care that I have to repurchase +2s. I don't think many people care about that since there are always at least a few on the AH at usually reasonable prices. But losing extremely rare +4s is definitely going to make people not spend points on a TR for that character.

[dkyle]

You contradict yourself, sir. First you say it is completely arbitrary then you say it is based on PnP. The fact that it is based on PnP, and in PnP a tome loses all magical abilities after being used ONCE, should carry quite a bit of weight.

No contradiction. I have absolutely no concern that DDO match any one particular edition's version of PnP for the sake of matching it. If the rules are good (as many of them are), use them. If they're not (as single use for BtC tomes is not), change them. If the lore makes sense for the new rules, keep it. If not, change it.

Agreed it is the same "soul" that is resurrected. And if a tome enchants the soul then you might have a logical argument, but the tome mechanic makes no mention of a soul in either DDO or PnP.

In PnP, the reincarnation spell brings the soul back in a new body. The new body benefits from the tomes used while the soul was in the previous body. How can it be more clear that the tome benefits carry along with the soul in PnP? Not that I really care what the lore is in 3.5 as far as how DDO works, but apparently you do.

Changing the consumption mechanic of a tome changes the "lore" entirely. As stated above, the tome mechanic and process is not arbitrary but based on PnP.

And the lore in PnP is arbitrary; chosen to fit a game mechanic that does not make sense in DDO. I change the suggested lore in the D&D game I run constantly. The books are merely a suggestion, nothing more.

And I disagree that this is superior game design. You are essentially advocating to keep a stat buff in your next life. +3 and +4 are significant increases and should not be handed on from life to life but should be earned every time.

I assume you advocate the exact same mechanics for all BtC Raid loot? If you don't, please explain your inconsistency in regards to game balance. An ESoS is certainly a far greater increase in character potency than one or two extra stat points.

I advocate for the consistent application of game design principles already present in the game. You advocate for exceptions to those principles for specific items. Why those specific items?

That term arbitrary keeps popping up. This is a game and every game has rules.

Game rules are not arbitrary, and I've never said they are. 3.5's rules regarding how tomes are not arbitrary. They make sense in that system, as does the associated lore to justify them. The rules don't make sense in DDO, with TR and BtC tomes, which means the 3.5 lore is arbitrary in regards to DDO. Forcing game mechanics in DDO to fit 3.5 lore is putting the cart in front of the horse. Good design comes first. Then adapt the lore as needed.

The logical distinction between BTC items and tomes is this: a BTC item is just that: an item. It has a physical presence, size, weight, dimension. In DDO a tome is destroyed when it is read, so there is no item to pass on. In PnP the tome still exists but has no magic so what good would rereading it be?

This is a lore based distinction. The only reason the tome is destroyed is because of some arbitrary lore, an artifact of a PnP ruleset. And because lore is completely arbitrary, we can argue 'till the cows come home what lore we prefer.

There is no game mechanics-based distinction between tome-based character bonuses, and BtC gear-based bonuses. There is no good reason for DDO's BtC tomes to self-destruct.

[Chai]

And the lore in PnP is arbitrary; chosen to fit a game mechanic that does not make sense in DDO. I change the suggested lore in the D&D game I run constantly. The books are merely a suggestion, nothing more.
.

ROFL. seriously ROFL.

Again, you were perfectly ready and willing to banter lore until you realized that there is a HUGE amount of it that doesnt support your stance on the issue. Early on in that game you saw the tidal wave of rules and guidelines all favored those who do not agree with your stance.

Now all of a sudden, everything that can possibly be brought up against making tomes perminent is "arbitrary" and therefore, according to you, neglibable, while every arguement you have posted in favor of it is "good game design" which is a matter of opinion, and not factual information about the game that actually exists, like printed D&D lore, rules, and guidelines are.

Also again, "good game design" being opinion, differs from person to person and entity to entity. Turbines definition of a good game design decision in this circumstance would be something that brings in more dollars to support the game. Making farmed tomes perminent would be a bad business decision. Face the music on this and look through the eyes of the entity that makes and maintains this game. If you have the ability to look at this from an objective business perspective, you will clearly see what I am saying is true here. If not, then continue to carry on saying that everything anyone can say against your opinion is completely arbitrary and everything you bring to the table is good game design.

Business decisions like this arent made in this fashion, so we have nothing to worry about. If you want to convince a marketing team or a board of directors that your cause has merrit, you would need to do research, show your work, and make your case that the company will come out in the black on this, while speaking fluent numbers-ese. Simple decree that anything you dont agree with is arbitrary and everything you do agree with is good game design doesnt cut it.

[voodoogroves]

Storebought ones keeping would be pretty nifty for their business model

[Chai]

I assume you advocate the exact same mechanics for all BtC Raid loot? If you don't, please explain your inconsistency in regards to game balance. An ESoS is certainly a far greater increase in character potency than one or two extra stat points.

The minute they are selling eSOS on the DDO store, or a weapon that is almost as powerful, you can banter this. Until then, you are the one being inconsistent, due to the fact that +2 tomes are sold on the store. Those sales would be greatly negatively affected by allowing people to just buy tomes once, or farm them once. What you call good game design, is in reality a bad business decision.

[dkyle]

Again, you were perfectly ready and willing to banter lore

When? I have never wanted to banter lore. I pointed out a few elements of lore that support me, to show how useless lore is to this discussion when any one can point to things that support their opinion.

I want to discuss DDO game design. That's all. Lore is not worth warping game mechanics for. It's a secondary consideration.

Now all of a sudden, everything that can possibly be brought up against making tomes perminent is "arbitrary" and therefore, according to you, neglibable, while every arguement you have posted in favor of it is "good game design" which is a matter of opinion, and not factual information about the game that actually exists, like printed D&D lore, rules, and guidelines are.

D&D lore is not "fact". It is simply some ideas some people have about how they think a fantasy setting should work. It is the epitome of opinion. Printing something in a book doesn't make it "factual information".

3.5 D&D PnP rules are not DDO, and DDO should not be beholden to them. Arguments that cite them are pointless. DDO is not PnP. Justify your arguments in the context of DDO, if you want to make a case for how DDO should work.

Yes, game design is opinion. But it's arguable opinion, which can be supported by actual examination and consideration of real world systems and behaviors.

Lore is also opinion, but basically inarguable opinion. There's no particular reason why any one person's notion of fantasy lore is any better than another's. It's all arbitrary as it has no basis in reality. Certain properties of fantasy lore are desirable, like consistency, but permanent tomes are just as consistent with the rest of 3.5 magic as one use tomes, so that avenue of argument is fruitless.

Making farmed tomes perminent would be a bad business decision.

How so? I've already shown that they can be made essentially permanent without reducing +2 tome sales in any way, by simply requiring use of a +2 tome before allowing previous-life-tomes to apply. Is there another problem you haven't mentioned?

everything you bring to the table is good game design.

If you do not think it is good game design to make tomes behave the same way as all other BtC Raid loot, tell me why. Lore is not game design, and I've already addressed your business-based concerns.

[dkyle]

The minute they are selling eSOS on the DDO store, or a weapon that is almost as powerful, you can banter this. Until then, you are the one being inconsistent, due to the fact that +2 tomes are sold on the store. Those sales would be greatly negatively affected by allowing people to just buy tomes once, or farm them once. What you call good game design, is in reality a bad business decision.

Perhaps you missed that I'm only suggesting that +3/+4 Raid loot tomes be reusable/not lost to TR? I said it so many times I may have neglected to say so in every single post, having assumed that you had read my previous posts, but just look at the very first sentence of my first post in this thread if you don't believe me.

I agree that reusble +2 tomes would be a bad idea. I've never meant to suggest otherwise.

[Rawel_San]

There is an easy fix to the money making problem from selling +2 tomes for Turbine. Allow the unlocking of
the +3/+4 tomes you ate in your past life via the store. This though would almost certainly be met by hostility
from many players though.

A possible fix to that would be make it so you can either unlock the +3/+4 tomes by buying them from the store or
by spending some amount of epic tokens maybe 30-40 per tome. That would make it harder then getting the true heart
which I assume sell well even though they can be bought with epic tokens.

Now I think about this proposal that might be more feasible then I thought. That should give Turbine a new cash cow while
making many players happy. Ofcourse you would not be allowed to actually buy the tomes just unlock ones you've used in your
past life.

[Deamus]

As from RP point of view why characters should keep tomes after tr , consider it like the past life feats.

A past life monk has evasion on second life cause he learned how to avoid damage , the same ,a past life character read a tome +4 Dex tome and is more dexterous through that knowledge/magic .The later character tr's to a new class and remembers his dexterity advantage from past life.

Why should be treated differently ?

There are more examples of past life feats and tomes that point they should be treated the same way .

I truly believe the current implementation was applied like this because of difficulties in developing and nothing more . Dev's can overcome this with extra time in developing or as aforementioned the tomes to get back to inventory again .

[Deamus]

not when they're selling +1 and +2 tomes in the DDO Store

TR is more expensive than +1 and +2 tomes in store . You need TR hearts which are more expensive and also which is most important you need supplies each life which can be bought with TP each life.

Tomes disappearing prohibits characters who didn't plan for tr not to tr ever again . Tomes to be kept opens the possibilities for many trs or even completionist for some people who want to take it slow.

Every life people will spend tp even if that means only of xp pots .

If you sum all these a TR costs more in tp than a complete set of tomes from the store . Its not even close.....

[rodallec]

if tomes carried over through TR's i would TR with a heart of wood!
hear that turnbine! MONEY!!!
let us keep tomes please thanks

[Impatiens]

The minute they are selling eSOS on the DDO store, or a weapon that is almost as powerful, you can banter this. Until then, you are the one being inconsistent, due to the fact that +2 tomes are sold on the store. Those sales would be greatly negatively affected by allowing people to just buy tomes once, or farm them once. What you call good game design, is in reality a bad business decision.

What do you think of the suggestion that if you ate a +3 or +4 tome in a past life you have that tome sitting in your TR cache to use again at the appropriate level? It is really these tomes that are the main concern here. If +1s and +2s don't carry over that would be fine. The lore reasoning, if there needs to be one, could be that those +3 and +4 tomes are bound to character, and thus bound to your soul, where the +1s and +2s are not. I don't think this would be very detrimental to the sale of +2 tomes because people would still want the benefit of those stats for the earlier levels. I would still definitely use a +2 int tome at 7 to get the extra skill points even if I had a +4 int tome waiting for me in my bank. Same for any tome that might open up a feat like the TWF chain. In this way turbine would still be able to make money off the +1 and +2 tomes and also make money off people who would not TR with the current state of it since they don't want to lose that hard earned raid loot. It seems like a win-win situation to me.

[Anthios888]

It sucks that when someone gets a few +4 tomes under their belt, they feel like they have to complete every TR they might ever want to do before eating them. That's just not a good way to play the game. One of the awesome things about TR is that you can say, when you're a little burned out, hey, I think I'll powerlevel for a week or two and make my character better.

For a lot of toons, a single TR makes them worse!

I know they want to sell +2 tomes in the DDO store, but I do think this change would encourage more TRs of the most hardcore gamers who ultimately spend a lot on XP pots and continued subscriptions.