Keep Tomes when TRing

[Bobthesponge]

/notsigned - illogical easy button

and yes, I am definining logic within the DDO setting, not real life...

I think people are also overlooking the fact that it's a Tome... a book. Apparently after we read these self help books we throw them on the fire or something. Instead of sitting them on a shelf somewhere in our private libraries.

If I was leaving all of my belongings to a future me, I think I'd also give myself my copy of The Crystal Shard. I think the new me would like to read about how Drizzt and Wulfgar became friends.

I think what you are overlooking is that this is NOT a book. It is a magical tome that essentially casts a spell on you. This isn't some adventure book that is merely words on a page. It is explicitly stated the the tome itself is destroyed in the process like any other magical ingredient, so what is there to bring back for your second/third/ect life?

When you TR you are destroyed and reborn. You have a small memory of your past self buried deep (past life feats) but YOU ARE NOT THE SAME PERSON.

You don't keep all your old knowledge.

You don't keep all your old favor.

You don't keep all your old experience.

You DO keep your items because you inherit them like any other property. BTC items apparently recognise your origins and so are still bound to you.

Please stop asking for easy buttons. TRing is powerful enough as it is. Asking that +4 tomes that have already been eaten transfer over is ridiculous.

[kernal42]

To be clear, kernal was onal suggesting a way to keep already earned tomes for plat. Tomes should not be purchasable outright for mere plat.

And this would be a great way to mitigate the inflation from the event in a fair way, while staving off the inevitable inflation the game has had inherently.

Indeed.

If they could make more selling TRs than they do selling +2 tomes now, you might see this in the future.

Considering the suggestion is for BTC raid loot tomes, it may not apply to most +2 tomes. Considering also that most players eat most of a full set of +2 tomes upon TR, this is not an "either tomes OR true hearts of wood" situation - rather, Turbine would likely sell more true hearts AND, therefore, more +2 supreme tomes for the newly TR'd.

Even if those who TR don't themselves buy the tomes from the stores, the increased demand will raise +2 tome prices and likely encourange others to give in and buy the store tomes.

I'm fairly certain that, were this suggestion implemented, Turbine would see a definite increase in the sales of both True Hearts and tomes from the store.

Cheers,
Kernal

[kernal42]

/notsigned - illogical easy button

and yes, I am definining logic within the DDO setting, not real life...

Please don't tell me what does or does not make sense in this magical fantasy world

You have a small memory of your past self buried deep (past life feats)

I'm glad you concede that there is already a mechanic in place by which aspects of your past life return in some form or another. It seems perfectly "logical" that the tome magic can linger in the same way.

Please stop asking for easy buttons. TRing is powerful enough as it is. Asking that +4 tomes that have already been eaten transfer over is ridiculous.

This is not an easy button. Giving away +4 tomes for free (or selling in the store) would be an easy button. Neglecting to require players to re-grind them every life is hardly an easy button.

Cheers,
Kernal

[hit_fido]

There is some precedent set as far as passive and active past life feats - "You were ... in a past life"; "you occasionally find yourself doing ..."; "you recall more about your past life as ...". So evidently TR is not meant as a total clean sweep from a design perspective. So allow characters to "recall" some degree of past magical ability training too.

I propose that a TR simply reduces any "inherent" ability bonus that has been accrued by the character by 1. The net effect is that a +2 tome becomes a +1 tome, a +4 tome becomes a +3 tome. On the next TR that +3 would further degrade to +2, and so on. The net effect is that +3/+4 tomes retain some value in the next life or two. Since +2 tomes degrade to +1 and since a +1 tome vanishes entirely there is still a reason for DDO store purchases for those who need/want the extra ability points.

Seems like a reasonable compromise that fits with the current conceptual game design regarding TR - good for players, good for Turbine.

[Tobril]

Every time I log on with one of my characters and stare at his
+4 INT and +4 DEX tomes I cry a little, knowing I shouldn’t use
them as I’m TRing that character before long.

Sad day.

[jwdaniels]

Every time I log on with one of my characters and stare at his
+4 INT and +4 DEX tomes I cry a little, knowing I shouldn’t use
them as I’m TRing that character before long.

Sad day.

Really? I look at the accumulated tomes in my bank and say "Wow, I'm gonna have some good stats when I finish TRing."

[dkyle]

Ok so how many rods do I have to sell to re-create the tome I already used on myself before I reincarnate?

The exact plat doesn't really matter that much. It could be zero or 500k; it's not there to balance tome recreation. No plat is necessary to balance that. It's inherently a good game design.

The plat is to provide a sink to absorb all that plat that gets pumped into the game. The amount of plat we get is pretty much arbitrary. The cost of tome recreation would be whatever the devs think would be a good amount to soak up that plat.

If they could make more selling TRs than they do selling +2 tomes now, you might see this in the future.

First, I suspect the kind of players with +3/4 tomes tend to be the kind that don't buy tomes from the store, since they can afford the plat.

But even if they are, a little tweak would avoid cannibalizing +2 tome sales: make consumed tomes become a "Remembered" bonus in the amount they exceed +2. So a +3 would be a +1, a +4 a +2. These bonuses would be applied at level 11 (one +1) and level 15 (another +1, if applicable). These would stack with up to 2 points of inherent bonus.

So a +4 tome becomes a "free" ML15 +2 tome on the next life, that stacks with a normal +2 tome. Naturally, most people would choose to eat at least a +2 tome to get the full +4 they had previously. Using a +3 tome would still just get +4 total, since the extra +1 from the +3 inherent bonus wouldn't stack with the +2 Remembered bonus.

I think what you are overlooking is that this is NOT a book. It is a magical tome that essentially casts a spell on you. This isn't some adventure book that is merely words on a page. It is explicitly stated the the tome itself is destroyed in the process like any other magical ingredient, so what is there to bring back for your second/third/ect life?

This is a completely arbitrary mechanism based on the realities of PnP D&D game design.

DDO is different a different game, with different realities. The lore can change to adapt.

When you TR you are destroyed and reborn. You have a small memory of your past self buried deep (past life feats) but YOU ARE NOT THE SAME PERSON.

Except that every real-world concept of Reincarnation, and even the Reincarnation spell in D&D PnP, has the same soul coming back in a different body. And I don't think it's a stretch to say that a soul is essentially "the person", as souls are usually thought of.

The tome can enchant the soul, or the tome can simply not be consumed. Either are perfectly logical ways magic could work to support tomes remaining through TRs. Arbitrary lore is not a reason to dismiss superior game design.

Please stop asking for easy buttons.

"Easy button" is all too often a term misused by people who have no good justification for opposing something. Citing arbitrary minutia of lore is not justification. Argue game design if you want to get anywhere.

If keeping tomes across TR is "easy button", then so is keeping BtC loot. Period. There is no logical distinction.

Really? I look at the accumulated tomes in my bank and say "Wow, I'm gonna have some good stats when I finish TRing."

And when will you be finished TRing? Completionist? After Druids come out? What if Psions come out? What if a new race comes out that's perfect for your build?

[DevHead]

I don't play PnP to know, but are there specific rules in place for reincarnation in D&D? Or was it a mechanic implemented specifically for DDO? Because if it's the latter, a storyline reason isn't really that strong considering we play in a world that breaks immersion (necessarily) *constantly*.

Pretty sure there's no such thing as TR in PnP D&D.

And keeping tomes doesn't make any sense. As others here have stated, your current body is completely destroyed in the process. If you want to keep your tome, don't use it until you're done TRing. It's not like it's impossible to build strong toons without the +3/4 Tomes.

[Chai]

Pretty sure there's no such thing as TR in PnP D&D.

And keeping tomes doesn't make any sense. As others here have stated, your current body is completely destroyed in the process. If you want to keep your tome, don't use it until you're done TRing. It's not like it's impossible to build strong toons without the +3/4 Tomes.

There are rules for reincarnation in D&D. TR is a MMO game mechanic.

[Tobril]

Really? I look at the accumulated tomes in my bank and say "Wow, I'm gonna have some good stats when I finish TRing."

Good for you.

Unfortunately I don’t know if I’ll ever be done.

As such they just take up inventory space and might as well be trashed.

[Chai]

"Easy button" is all too often a term misused by people who have no good justification for opposing something. Citing arbitrary minutia of lore is not justification. Argue game design if you want to get anywhere.

If keeping tomes across TR is "easy button", then so is keeping BtC loot. Period. There is no logical distinction.

There sure as hell is logical distinction. You are just attempting to refute this by stating that all lore regarding the issue is irrelevant, as it does not support your stance on the issue. In order to argue against people citing rules that are against what you are suggesting, you have to state that any lore people who disagree with your stance cite is irrelevant.

I think assuming all lore away as irrelevant is much more severe than stating its an easy button to only have to farm tomes once. Lore is not arbitrary if it is actually cited and quoted from the source.

This is the same stance people take when having DPS discussions. Every thing except big frackin devils is irrelevant, when in reality declaring 99% of all game content irrelevant to focus in on one detail is not completely covering all details that need to be covered. All rules and lore are irrelevant? I think not.

[Bobthesponge]

Please don't tell me what does or does not make sense in this magical fantasy world

DDO is my world and you're just playing in it!

I'm glad you concede that there is already a mechanic in place by which aspects of your past life return in some form or another. It seems perfectly "logical" that the tome magic can linger in the same way.

The past life feat is the entirety of the mechanic by which aspects of your past life return. What is being proposed here is to add to that an ability increase. TRing already grants such an ability increase because you have more stat points to play with. It does not follow that tome magic can linger as well - the TR memory is not perfect. The original poster I quoted said that he would like to save a Drizzt book to be read by his TR so he could read it - this is the same thing. You do not remember everything from your past life.

Thus I call this illogical because 1) the tome itself is detroyed when it is used and there is nothing to pass on and 2) TR memory isn't perfect so knowlege of what was in the tome shouldn't be passed along and the magical effects end when you die and are destroyed. You become a new person.

This is not an easy button. Giving away +4 tomes for free (or selling in the store) would be an easy button. Neglecting to require players to re-grind them every life is hardly an easy button.

I contend not requiring to regrind IS an easy button by definition. As stated above you are looking to avoid running quests and just go to the reward. Raiding to get a +3 or +4 tome is part of the game and part of the experience. Top end tomes are special and should be earned... every time.

Cheers,
Kernal

Cheers!

[dkyle]

There sure as hell is logical distinction. You are just attrempting to refute this by stating that all lore regarding the issue is irrelevant. In order to argue against people citing rules that are against what you are suggesting, you have to state that any lore people who disagree with your stance cite is irrelevant.

I think assuming all lore away as irrelevant is much more severe than stating its an easy button to only have to farm tomes once. Lore is not arbitrary if it is actually cited and quoted from the source.

Lore is completely irrelevent to game mechanics. All lore is mutable. All of it is made up by someone. The 3.5 DMG is not a "source" for anything but some rules ideas the devs may or may not implement in DDO. It's not the holy grail of game design, let alone of how magic "must" work.

Now, some people care more about fitting their concept of what the lore "should" be, chaining the game design to that instead of designing a good game, and having solid lore that reflects and inspires it. Those people aren't me, and I hope they aren't the devs.

D&D has always been about houseruling and reflavoring what's in the books. Calling the books "sources" to be "cited" is frankly quite the opposite of the spirit of what D&D is. The rules and the setting described in them are merely suggestions. Real D&D springs from the imaginations of the DM, and in DDO, the devs are our DMs.

[Chai]

Lore is completely irrelevent to game mechanics. All lore is mutable. All of it is made up by someone. The 3.5 DMG is not a "source" for anything but some rules ideas the devs may or may not implement in DDO. It's not the holy grail of game design, let alone of how magic "must" work. .

No. Not simply because you say it is. It is a great guideline used in many cases to create this incarnation of the game, to which you have no response for other than declaring it completely irrelevant because it doesnt back up your stance.

Now, some people care more about fitting their concept of what the lore "should" be, chaining the game design to that instead of designing a good game, a having solid lore that reflects and inspires it. Those people aren't me, and I hope they aren't the devs..

Declaration of "good game design" based on matter of opinion would be incorrect. In matters of Turbines opinion as a company, "good game design" would equate to revenue generated. Like I stated before, you better speak pretty good numbers-ese if you were the one who had to pitch this to someone in marketing who had to put their OK stamp on it, especially if +2 store tomes are making money, which I suspect they are.

D&D has always been about houseruling and reflavoring what's in the books. Calling the books "sources" to be "cited" is frankly quite the opposite of the spirit of what D&D is. The rules and the setting described in them are merely suggestions. Real D&D springs from the imaginations of the DM, and in DDO, the devs are our DMs.

That still in no way makes all lore, rules (guidelines), and literature irrelevant, simply because it doesnt support your stance.

Like I said before, you might be able to convince me as a player, but if +2 tomes already sell well in the store, you would be hard pressed to convince me that what you are proposing is a good thing if I was the one who had to make the decision and had to take revenue generation into account for the company.

[Braegan]

I've thought about this alot before as I've done some TR'ing and "lost" some tomes. But as the idea is proposed: /notsigned.

However, I would support a fourth kind of reincarnation implemented where tomes "used" apply to the next life. Complete Reincarnate. To be eligible you must posess the Completionist Feat. The only reason I am onboard with this is that currently a completionist loses the feat and needs to level a new class (when new classes are added) and then go back into their final build. To TR or not is your choice, unless you are a completionist and a new class is introduced and then you are kinda forced to.

[QuantumFX]

Personally, I think when a character gets the completionist feat they should be considered to have eaten ML:1 +4 tomes and get them applied automatically as they level up.

[waterboytkd]

Really? I look at the accumulated tomes in my bank and say "Wow, I'm gonna have some good stats when I finish TRing."

And this is why Tomes should be kept through TRs (applied at their ML, of course). When you finish TRing...and then, when something new and cool comes out and it might be beneficial for your TRed toon who ate all his +4 tomes? Will you TR? That will depend on the answer to the question that you ask yourself: "Is it worth it for me to lose my +4 tomes for this new and cool thing?"

And the variance of that answer will cost Turbine money. If you kept tomes through TRs, this question doesn't get asked. No negative responses to that question will cost Turbine True Heart of Wood sales.

As for hurting +2 stat tome sales on the store, two things come to mind:

1) Are the people that TR regularly the kind of people that buy tomes off the store? I've only ever bought one tome off the store, and that's because there's only one tome that needs to be used a specific level: +2 Int tome. And only once have I not had one lying around, waiting for a toon to level. All the others, I will get eventually through drops. People who TR, especially people who TR repeatedly, are probably somewhat patient people (willing to do that grind all over again), and I can't imagine they buy a lot of tomes with real money. BUT, that is an assumption.

2) Only allow BtA and BtC tomes to survive through the TR. Since those tomes were bound to you magically, they stay with your soul through the reincarnation process, but you need to nurture that kernal of knowledge hiding within you in order to bring it forth (thus, you need xp, and the tome won't be applied until you reach the ML at which it could have been consumed). But, this keeps store-bought tomes from surviving (I think...are store-bought tomes bound? If so, they could unbind them and give them the special No Mail, No Trade, No Auction descriptors that some items have), so sales on those could continue.

As for Lore reasons why this shouldn't be implemented, lore is arbitrary. Even if cited from original D&D source material, it's still arbitrary. And DDO really shows that because it ignores some lore stuff that doesn't work well in an MMO video game, and it introduced concepts that never existed in PnP (such as binding items to characters or accounts) but serve an MMO video game well.

Also, from a lore standpoint, arguing anything about TRing with lore is faulty: there is no such thing as a TR in D&D lore outside of DDO. That is a construct for this game, and this game alone. As has been mentioned, the only reincarnation that existed in 3.5 PnP was the druid spell, and guess what? You got to keep your tome bonuses...

[dkyle]

Declaration of "good game design" based on matter of opinion would be incorrect.

Of course it's my opinion. What else could it possibly be? And I would love to see some arguments on why it isn't a good game design. I haven't. All I see are people beholden to minutia of lore someone created to serve a game mechanic that does not make sense in DDO.

Arguing how "magic should work" is pointless. There's no real basis of discussion for any of it. On the other hand, how a game plays, what impact it has on player's behaviors, is eminently real, predictable, and analyzable.

And I've already outlined how the devs could implement this with basically no loss of +2 tome sales.

That still in no way makes all lore, rules, and literature irrelevant, simply because it doesnt support your stance.

My stance is about game design, and game design alone. I reject all lore and literature as irrelevant to that stance, regardless of whether it supports it or not. I think you'll find that in the majority of literature, books do not fade when read, even magic ones. Have I cited this and stated that my stance is correct because that's just how books work? No. And I won't. I argue based on game mechanics.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Good point (again)

see D&D Players handbook, DM Guide 3.5 for an explanation

[Four20]

/signed.

Not keeping tomes keeps alot of people of TRing. As for an explanation of why we keep them for the RP poin to view im 100% that they can find a reasonable excuse for that.
Tring means more money for turbine after all.......

not when they're selling +1 and +2 tomes in the DDO Store