1 cleric level will not help you!

[Ganolyn]

I have a 15 Ranger/4 Rogue/1 Cleric that works well because the Cleric level boosts the Ranger abilities by:

1) Giving me a free Cure Light Wounds that is boosted by my Ranger Healing Amp. (good for cheap top-offs) and opens up a Ranger spell slot.

2) Raising my Will save.

3) Giving me 160 additional spell points (I'm at 651 with my SP item).

4) Giving a few useful spells like Nightshield, Divine Favor, Obscuring Mist and Remove Fear.

5) Some useful wand and scroll use.


I took it because nothing else added so much for so little (except Monk, which I don't own) and neither one more level of Rogue nor Ranger would have given much either. Definitely not a build for everyone though.

[Therigar]

ROFL!

The advice to drink potions instead of using wands is situationally correct at the very best. Not knowing what occurs during animations puts your character at increased risk.

Splashing one level of cleric makes good sense from a number of angles. That splashing bard, ranger or paladin would get the same ability to use cure wands is only part of the story.

The original poster's point is invalid. The relative merits of other splashes are worthy of debate but, ultimately, which is best really depends on the player and what they intend to achieve with the build. The advice to rely on UMD ignores the fact that UMD is weak at early levels.

And, you've all ignored that there isn't a good reason not to do both -- splash for wand use AND for UMD. If that is what a player is splashing for then bard wins hands down.

The point about jump animations is this, if you are jumping up and down in one place you might as well be standing still. It means that you are ignoring the reason to move -- to escape combat/danger. And, you cannot be moving and drink potions without the animation stopping. Jump simply overrides the stop by taking you to the end point of the jump anyways.

The point about drinking while jumping vs using wands while running is this -- wand use does not stop you from running. Not everyone is adept at jumping. But, anyone can hit the "R" key and go into autorun.

Concerning potions vs wands a person who can use wands is foolish to substitute potions for anything other than an emergency or while swimming. Just compare the cost for 50 CSW potions vs 50 charges on a CSW wand.

It isn't that I know it all. It is just that in this case I know more than those posting contrary advice. Take a look thru the forums, there are plenty of examples where I know less. Just not in this case.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That is just plain bad advice.

First, drinking potions stops all other action. So it really is "chug and swing" since you are doing nothing while drinking that potion. OTOH, the mobs are still attacking you and you are still taking damage.

Second, "they who learn to run away live to fight another day." Too many players are bad players because they just stand there in the middle of the mobs trying to self heal. When the character dies they can't figure out what went wrong.

Good players know when to move out of combat and how to take advantage of short breaks. And, wand healing lets you achieve this on the move.

Did I mention that you cannot do anything else when drinking potions? If you run out of combat and drink a potion you stop. You don't move, you stop still and you drink.

With wands you keep moving and cast the cure. A very important part of the running away so that you can fight another day concept.

It is unfortunate that a founder should give such poor advice. The reality is that potions have specific uses. The same is true of wands and even scrolls. But, in the world of healing it is inaccurate to say potions > wands and irresponsible to make such a statement and follow it with "especially for a melee in combat...."

Wow......



Drinking a potion does not requre you to swap out a weapon.... I cannot count how many times I have used a wand and then found myself trying to hit the monster with the wand still in my hand.
I sincerely doubt you get more DPS time by equiping a wand, using it, then re-equiping you weapon than you do simply by drinking a pot.

Try Jumping. (for both wands and pots)
You jump, w/FF and keep moving as you heal. Plus monsters have a hard time hitting you as you jump around.

Potions can be used underwater. In Sneak mode.


If I have the coin, I much prefer to use potions.

But actually I prefer both. As they have seperate cool down timers, you can heal up faster using both.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Reading this thread make me realise just how much I am gimping my party when I allow a lvl 19 Wizard to run with a group of lvl 20s.

[PopeJual]

Not being the optimal choice does not mean that it's a "very poor" or "not useful" choice though.

If choice B gives you all of the benefits that choice A would give you and choice B gives you extra benefits in addition, then Choice A looks "very poor" to me.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Therigar, you are my special little helper for the day. What kind of lolli would you like?

Nobody is advocating jumping up and down in one spot. Nobody is advocating pots instead of wands.

Run, jump (forward, while still moving, Ie not in one spot vertically, in other words with using forward momentum, also known as jump-(action)) at apex whip your wand, run, jump, at apex drink pot (since wand still on timer), repeat from beginning. It's called two-fisted healing, and you run almost as fast as a straight dash, and much faster than if you don't jump.

[Therigar]

I cannot count how many times I have used a wand and then found myself trying to hit the monster with the wand still in my hand.

That's just incompetence isn't it? But, not knowing what you have equipped? That's just a failure to pay attention.

I suppose if all players are affected by attention deficit....

But, back on topic. If I have the coin, I much prefer to use potions. But actually I prefer both.

Here's the truth. Use potions when and where the circumstances dictate it. Use wands when and where the circumstances dictate it.

And, healing via wands is only one aspect of wand use. Splashing cleric opens the full range of clerical wands for use and that might have value for many players.

In fact, wand use is only one part of the reason for a cleric splash. Boosts to Will saves and access to the full set of L1 cleric spells are also legitimate reasons. Since some of these are not duplicated by other class splashes it is reasonable that some players would prefer a L1 cleric splash.

It is unfortunate that the thread is derailed to focus only on the wands for healing bit.

[Therigar]

Therigar, you are my special little helper for the day. What kind of lolli would you like?

Nobody is advocating jumping up and down in one spot. Nobody is advocating pots instead of wands.

Run, jump (forward, while still moving, Ie not in one spot vertically, in other words with using forward momentum, also known as jump-(action)) at apex whip your wand, run, jump, at apex drink pot (since wand still on timer), repeat from beginning. It's called two-fisted healing, and you run almost as fast as a straight dash, and much faster than if you don't jump.

Gee, thanks.

If you don't read between the lines then, yes people are advocating pots instead of wands. Or, did the pots > wands line skip you?

Yes, run, jump. So simple that I'd think most people understand it. But what wasn't clear in many posts was the need to be escaping the bad situation while healing. Doesn't help matters much when people post that they're too ADD to remember to swap their wands for weapons.

Back on topic (although the wand vs pots and jump/run derail is fun) is the point that the original post is wrong. A cleric splash is often justified and, depending on what the player is trying to achieve, often the best choice.

Edit: had reference in place of "is wrong" that the language filter didn't like. Four letters beginning with c and ending with p and an ar in the middle.

[Entelech]

In the case of a 19 Wiz / 1 Cleric, note that Bards, Paladins, and Rangers do *not* get access to *INFLICT* wands. So after level 13, Cleric is clearly and unequivocally a superior choice over those other classes, since you can wand-heal as an undead.

Thus, the blanket premise that "Other class splashes are always better" has been proven false.

Formal logic FTW!


Also, while in combat, potions may be a better option if weapon-swapping is inadvisable or inconvenient. But for healing up between fights, wands are still the cheapest way to go. Of course, if you're too lazy to swap out a weapon between fights, you are free to waste the plat. I'm not your mom.

[Wizzly_Bear]

If choice B gives you all of the benefits that choice A would give you and choice B gives you extra benefits in addition, then Choice A looks "very poor" to me.

To me, a "very poor" choice is not one that simply is not the "best" choice, but rather one that doesn't follow through on it's own intent.

For instance...
taking a fighter level for umd
Taking a wizard level on a paladin for concentration
Making your monk a drow solely for the SR
Etc

Taking a level of cleric for more self healing can actually increase your access to self healing. Doing so it meets the objective. The existence of better choices doesn't make an acceptable "lesser" choice invalid.

[Braegan]

That is just plain bad advice. That's just like your opinion man.

First, drinking potions stops all other action. So it really is "chug and swing" since you are doing nothing while drinking that potion. OTOH, the mobs are still attacking you and you are still taking damage. Really how long does that animation take, 1.5 seconds maybe? If you can't survive a mob hitting you for less then two seconds as a melee then there are bigger problems to address then wands or pots.

Second, "they who learn to run away live to fight another day." Too many players are bad players because they just stand there in the middle of the mobs trying to self heal. When the character dies they can't figure out what went wrong. Depends on the senario. Players that scatter at the first sign of damage and miss out on mass heals are also not playing well.

Good players know when to move out of combat and how to take advantage of short breaks. And, wand healing lets you achieve this on the move. As do potions.

Did I mention that you cannot do anything else when drinking potions? If you run out of combat and drink a potion you stop. You don't move, you stop still and you drink.
Again see above less then two seconds. If you can't survive that long perhaps there are bigger issues to address.


With wands you keep moving and cast the cure. A very important part of the running away so that you can fight another day concept. And have to swap weapon to wand then use wand and then swap back, not quite as cut and dry and you make it sound.

It is unfortunate that a founder should give such poor advice. The reality is that potions have specific uses. The same is true of wands and even scrolls. But, in the world of healing it is inaccurate to say potions > wands and irresponsible to make such a statement and follow it with "especially for a melee in combat...." It's unfortunate that of all the advice I have given on these boards you take one quick post and attempt to tear it apart throwing my join date in my face. I stand behind what I said. If you are in melee and need a quick heal it is better & faster to chug a pot and continue to fight rather then swap to a wand, use said wand, then swap back to your weapon then engage again. If you are in a situation where you have to back off then you probably bit off more then you could chew and in reallity a review of tactics is in order.

So to expand a little more since my first post was just a quick tip and sure I'll agree situations may dictate different actions.

Splashing one level of healing class for access to wands is fail.

Potions are the best low level healing.

UMD wanding is great mid levels up, especially when used with potions to top yourself off quickly.

UMD Heal scrolls is money high levels between fights.

Not getting your azz handed to you in the first place = priceless.

[Therigar]

If choice B gives you all of the benefits that choice A would give you and choice B gives you extra benefits in addition, then Choice A looks "very poor" to me.

Ah, ignorance is bliss.

What about when the choices give you different sets of extra benefits? That is the situation here.

Cleric splash gives one set of benefits. Bard splash gives another. Ranger splash gives a third. Meanwhile, paladin splash gives a fourth. Should I mention that favored soul gives a fifth?

And, there is no clear winner among them. Which is better and which is worst really is a matter of player preference.

The fact is that choice B does not duplicate all of the benefits of choice A. It only duplicates some of them. And, that is true for all 5 of the possible splashes.

[PopeJual]

The fact is that choice B does not duplicate all of the benefits of choice A. It only duplicates the ones that are actually useful. And, that is true for all 5 of the possible splashes.

Fixed that for you.



Edit: In an effort to actually move the dialog forward and not just score points, what specific abilities or spells that you get from 1 level of Cleric that you don't get from 1 level of Bard would you actually use? I'll admit that the Nightshield is attractive (even if it is only for 1 minute), but all of the other stuff is either Cure spells/wands or available in potion//wand/clicky form to the Bard splash or is just plain junk. The Bard splash is actually pretty sexy even at level 20 if you're using it to qualify for Arcane Archer or something.

[Therigar]

Fixed that for you.

Edit: In an effort to actually move the dialog forward and not just score points, what specific abilities or spells that you get from 1 level of Cleric that you don't get from 1 level of Bard would you actually use? I'll admit that the Nightshield is attractive (even if it is only for 1 minute), but all of the other stuff is either Cure spells/wands or available in potion//wand/clicky form to the Bard splash or is just plain junk. The Bard splash is actually pretty sexy even at level 20 if you're using it to qualify for Arcane Archer or something.

No you didn't, you just demonstrated the degree of prejudices.

Others have made good points concerning the Cause wounds bit if you happen to be a wizard.

Nightshield is very attractive and shouldn't be dismissed. The use of 3 spells rather than 1 or 2 (bard/fvs) means more options with CLW always loaded.

+2 to will saves on a melee class isn't too bad either -- something you don't get from ranger or paladin.

Only favored soul actually compares across the board with cleric. It gives the same wand options with slightly more spell points and 1 less L1 spell (because CLW isn't automatic). It also gives a bigger boost to saves (+2 to both reflex and will saves).

However, favored soul is CHA based rather than WIS based. WIS is often used in conjunction with monk as a second class splash for the WIS/DEX synergy for AC. That means going with cleric over favored soul could be the better choice for a player looking at 18/1/1 builds*.

As I keep trying to point out, choice of splash depends on what the overall build is. And, for some cleric is the better choice.

* Edit: With several builds now topping at the tier II PrE even larger splashes make sense in some cases. That, however, is a different topic.

[Vellrad]

It was nice supprice to get mana from barbarian with 1lv cleric splash .

I think I can understand any crazy multiclassing except one:
caster (wizard/sorc) + barbarian.

Hello, you can't cast while in rage, guys!

[Shyver]

Others have made good points concerning the Cause wounds bit if you happen to be a wizard.

Splashing 1 level of cleric on a wizard in order to be able to use inflict wands is A TERRIBLE IDEA! Don't even suggest that it is a good idea. You give up the wizard capstone, so DC and spell pen, in order to get some mediocre extra healing that isn't even needed with the aura, blast, and inflict pots from collectibles. There is no good point to splashing on a wizard. Period.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That's just incompetence isn't it? But, not knowing what you have equipped? That's just a failure to pay attention.

I suppose if all players are affected by attention deficit....

But, back on topic. If I have the coin, I much prefer to use potions. But actually I prefer both.

Here's the truth. Use potions when and where the circumstances dictate it. Use wands when and where the circumstances dictate it.

And, healing via wands is only one aspect of wand use. Splashing cleric opens the full range of clerical wands for use and that might have value for many players.

In fact, wand use is only one part of the reason for a cleric splash. Boosts to Will saves and access to the full set of L1 cleric spells are also legitimate reasons. Since some of these are not duplicated by other class splashes it is reasonable that some players would prefer a L1 cleric splash.

It is unfortunate that the thread is derailed to focus only on the wands for healing bit.

I blame it on lag. Cause I do know what I just equiped and know that I tried to switch back....but someone that wand is still in my hand.


My comments about pots and wands had nothing to do with a Clr1 splash.


I do not think a Clr 1 is a good idea, but I also do not think it makes a gimp either.
It seems more useful to me at lower lvls than higher ones though. And I think if I had one, that I would LR+1 by lvl 20 to get rid of it.

[PopeJual]

No you didn't, you just demonstrated the degree of prejudices.

Others have made good points concerning the Cause wounds bit if you happen to be a wizard. If you're a Pale Master, then you already have Negative Energy Burst. If you have the enough time to use a Cause X Wounds wand, then you also have enough time to drop out of your form and use a Cure wand instead. Taking a level of Cleric to use Cause Wounds wands on a Pale Master is a TERRIBLE idea.

Nightshield is very attractive and shouldn't be dismissed. The use of 3 spells rather than 1 or 2 (bard/fvs) means more options with CLW always loaded. Indeed. I quite like the idea of being able to cast Nightshield even if it does last only 1 minute. The only thing that I really want from the Abbot raid on my Ranger and on my Fighter is a fully upgraded Silver Flame necklace that I can trade in for the Nightshield clicky. That's why I mentioned Nighshield as a Good Thing(tm).

+2 to will saves on a melee class isn't too bad either -- something you don't get from ranger or paladin. If Will saves mattered at higher levels, I'd be more impressed. My capped Fighter has an absolutely HORRIBLE Will save and he doesn't have serious problems as long as someone helps him out with a FoM and he remembers to chug a Protection from Evil potion.

Only favored soul actually compares across the board with cleric. It gives the same wand options with slightly more spell points and 1 less L1 spell (because CLW isn't automatic). It also gives a bigger boost to saves (+2 to both reflex and will saves). What level 1 spells would you actually choose beyond Nightshield and Cure Light Wounds, though? And are you actually going to be using CLW in the middle of a fight? Obscuring Mist is nice, but Solid Fog is better and Solid Fog clickies are dirt cheap. What spell beyond Nightshileld are you going to take?

However, favored soul is CHA based rather than WIS based. WIS is often used in conjunction with monk as a second class splash for the WIS/DEX synergy for AC. That means going with cleric over favored soul could be the better choice for a player looking at 18/1/1 builds*.

As I keep trying to point out, choice of splash depends on what the overall build is. And, for some cleric is the better choice. Please provide a specific example where Cleric would be a better splash than Bard. I do not believe that one exists.

* Edit: With several builds now topping at the tier II PrE even larger splashes make sense in some cases. That, however, is a different topic.

My thoughts above. I do agree that a splash of 6 Cleric levels could be fun and useful, but a single level of Cleric just screams out "ineffective" to me. There are certainly other things that you could do to your character that are much worse than a single level splash of Cleric, but that doesn't make a single level Cleric splash a good idea.

[JasonJi72]

It seems to me that there is enough reason not to deny someone to a group because of having 1 cleric level.

One thing I would like to point out about UMD scroll and no fail wand use is the fact that you have to make a concentration check to use a scroll in combat. Also, sometimes you dont want to switch out items and buff up to use umd.

Regarding potions, wands, and scrolls:
I usually carry all of them if I can use them (most of my characters can). Each one has its place, and yes I do carry a stack of cure pots on my cleric / fvs characters.

I drink potions during combat (the animation is not that long).
I use wands while running and between battles.
Scrolls are great! My next UMD guy will have some concentration though.

Sometimes the game does not change your weapon when you click it, or you just simply forget. That's ok Talon, it happens to me too.

[Postumus]

It probably would have been a good idea to read through the other posts before basically re-posting information that was already proven incorrect.

Splashing one level of healing class for access to wands is fail.

Nope. See about a dozen or so posters who explain why this statement is simply incorrect.

Potions are the best low level healing.

No. This was explained very clearly and very well by the posters above that potions are situational and in terms of cost, speed, ability to two-fist-heal, etc wands are extremely useful at all levels.