How about fixing without adding DPS

[Chai]

The AC ship sailed and sank 3 years ago.

I think phasing out AC in favor of DR has potential.

I used to believe this as well, right up to and until I saw an intimitank tank both Horoth and Sully on an elite TOD run at the same time and barely take any damage.

Phasing out AC in a game derived from D&D puts us one step closer to the sammich clones.

I think epics need to be retooled to make AC viable but the rest of the game can be played with AC being viable.

I dont think adding arbitrary DR solves the issue, though I do believe DR should scale with the inflated HP and damage dealt better than it currently does.

[chester99]

There a lot of character options that need a lot of work. Two that stand out are Sword and Board and Ranged. We all know they need help (well, those in the cookie cutter coalition probably don't agree). What I would like to ask the dev’s is stop the DPS arms race. The solution to everything doesn’t have to be increased DPS, yet that seems to always be the answer.

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I would really like to see Sword and Board made relevant in this game (e.g. make it an actual tank, not just a damage dealer with a bunch of hit points). I think there are several ways of doing this, but in my opinion they should not increase DPS. One thing I think is needed is passive stackable shield DR, and I mean real DR (e.g. 15 – 25+).
Of course, now you have the problem that you have a great DR, but no one is trying to hit you. So you need to increase agro somehow (intimidate is an obvious choice, but I like there to be several paths to the same goal, so what else…? Not certain but here are some ideas). 1) Give Shields some passive hate (need to be careful to not unbalance intimidate). 2) Allow shield users to use shield block (or similar) to provide area DR (say 10 - 15) to fellow combatants drawing agro (yeah, makes no since in the real world, but then we all stand next to each other swinging greataxes and never hit a good guy, so realism was thrown out a long time ago).

You could also have shields proc other things (e.g. crowd control, but personally I think they should stick with the Tank

I'm gussing people will flip over the high DR I'm proposing, but really, at the cost of a weapon (or half)? Overpowering? Not likely.

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Ranged users have the same basic problem. Please, don’t try to make them a DPS equivalent. Try something else. Crowd control is an obvious choice. Give them more ability to do the equivalent of hold, knockdown, hamstring, DR reduction, and make the DC’s based on the ranged combatants abilities not just some static DC of an item (e.g. base it off of a stat, or even a skill).

Of course, you could also give them more one shot kill ability. This has the problem of marginalizing that ability of the Arcane. It would have to be more complicated (e.g. hold first then kill shot, or some such balance).

They key would be some of these abilities would have to translate to bosses, or they aren’t viable. E.g. slow the bosses attack, reduce the bosses DR, things like that.
The nice thing here is Many shot would give them a bit of spice.

I've given some suggestions, they may or may not be workable, but the core idea is there. Find other answers than DPS to make characters viable in the game. Variety of the life blood of a game, so go out there and make some.

Or, we could just admit that the concept of a "tank" class is dumb and leave everything the way it is.

[Westerner]

I used to believe this as well, right up to and until I saw an intimitank tank both Horoth and Sully on an elite TOD run at the same time and barely take any damage.

Phasing out AC in a game derived from D&D puts us one step closer to the sammich clones.

I think epics need to be retooled to make AC viable but the rest of the game can be played with AC being viable.

I dont think adding arbitrary DR solves the issue, though I do believe DR should scale with the inflated HP and damage dealt better than it currently does.

I agree AC can be useful and even uber, if you design your build/gear around it. But otherwise most toons would do better to dump AC.

The problem is the d20 range is too narrow for AC to be useful as difficulty scales.

Rather than trying to raise that sunken ship, I think DR has more potential because it has a potentially unlimited range and can thus scale better.

[grodon9999]

The problem is the d20 range is too narrow for AC to be useful as difficulty scales.

A simple and easy way to expand the useful range of AC, while keeping the game D20:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=simple

[Chai]

I agree AC can be useful and even uber, if you design your build/gear around it. But otherwise most toons would do better to dump AC.

The problem is the d20 range is too narrow for AC to be useful as difficulty scales.

Rather than trying to raise that sunken ship, I think DR has more potential because it has a potentially unlimited range and can thus scale better.

The issue here is that the next high end content would just have mobs that hit harder, getting through the DR. Now, players have to build for DR or get hit harder than they used to.

You are right, DR is essentially limitless, and as such, can be inflated through the roof and become another power creep. Instead of building unhittable AC toons like people did in the past, people will build undamage-able DR toons and then the next content that comes out will have inflated damage, just as epics had inflated to-hit values to challenge high AC builds (which made them useless).

The end result is that people who DONT build for having that DR will get RoflPwned®.

Epics are really the only place where AC is broke.

[dng242]

I used to believe this as well, right up to and until I saw an intimitank tank both Horoth and Sully on an elite TOD run at the same time and barely take any damage.

Phasing out AC in a game derived from D&D puts us one step closer to the sammich clones.

I think epics need to be retooled to make AC viable but the rest of the game can be played with AC being viable.

I dont think adding arbitrary DR solves the issue, though I do believe DR should scale with the inflated HP and damage dealt better than it currently does.

Those intimitanks do work, however, it's an all or nothing thing. You either have a toon of very hard to get gear, or you suck at it. In addition, it relies on blocking, vastly reducing your damage output. With DPS, that isn't the case, if one toon has 10 - 20% less DPS than another, it still works, harder but it works. If you do the same to AC, you might as well not have it. The idea to trade some DPS for some defense, and give more options than just going with DPS builds for the average player (intimi tanks end game are not for the average player)

[dng242]

Or, we could just admit that the concept of a "tank" class is dumb and leave everything the way it is.

As I noted in the original post those in the Cookie Cutter Coalition wouldn't agree. Because they are correct. It isn't actually necessary... just more for fun for a bunch of us.

[Westerner]

The issue here is that the next high end content would just have mobs that hit harder, getting through the DR. Now, players have to build for DR or get hit harder than they used to.

You are right, DR is essentially limitless, and as such, can be inflated through the roof and become another power creep. Instead of building unhittable AC toons like people did in the past, people will build undamage-able DR toons and then the next content that comes out will have inflated damage, just as epics had inflated to-hit values to challenge high AC builds (which made them useless).

The end result is that people who DONT build for having that DR will get RoflPwned®.

There's a major difference between DR and AC. If the next iteration of power creep (tm) leaves your toon under spec, your residual DR is still worth something. Which is better than residual AC that is worth nothing. That's my point. DR is a more solid foundation to build on.

[chester99]

As I noted in the original post those in the Cookie Cutter Coalition wouldn't agree. Because they are correct. It isn't actually necessary... just more for fun for a bunch of us.

I'm not going to tell you what's fun and what's not, that's for you to decide. I am going to point out that "standing still while holding the shift key" is not on my list of "fun things". but I'm a man with his own drummer there it seems. shift keys for everyone!

[Astraghal]

I think increasing the passive and active DR a little for everyone holding a shield and substantially for those who take defensive enhancement lines would go a long way towards fixing shields.

Also increasing the AC provided by shields by 10-15, again possibly dependent on whether enhancement lines supporting defense have been invested in.

Shields just don't provide enough DR or AC to be worth using, even when just blocking.

[Failedlegend]

I'm not going to tell you what's fun and what's not, that's for you to decide. I am going to point out that "standing still while holding the shift key" is not on my list of "fun things". but I'm a man with his own drummer there it seems. shift keys for everyone!

ummmm...what he never said you had to sit there and not move he said when a sheild is equipped and i'm guessing (if S&B became viable) that lots of people would be using a bastard sword or a dwarven axes (those are the ones that utilize the THF feats right?).

[dng242]

I'm not going to tell you what's fun and what's not, that's for you to decide. I am going to point out that "standing still while holding the shift key" is not on my list of "fun things". but I'm a man with his own drummer there it seems. shift keys for everyone!

I think we have the same drummer. You are 100% spot on, holding the shift key is not as fun as clicking the right mouse button. That is why I want the passive DR higher, thus while swinging that one handed weapon you still get the DR and you still can do 60% ish of the damage of the barb and friends and vorpal, etc.

[dng242]

The issue here is that the next high end content would just have mobs that hit harder, getting through the DR. Now, players have to build for DR or get hit harder than they used to.

You are right, DR is essentially limitless, and as such, can be inflated through the roof and become another power creep. Instead of building unhittable AC toons like people did in the past, people will build undamage-able DR toons and then the next content that comes out will have inflated damage, just as epics had inflated to-hit values to challenge high AC builds (which made them useless).

The end result is that people who DONT build for having that DR will get RoflPwned®.

Epics are really the only place where AC is broke.

Not really correct. AC was even a problem in PnP because it is limited by the D20, thus if you AC isn't higher than than your opponents attack bonus it has zero effect, realistically you need the AC to be 6 - 9 higher to have any real affect, but then all of a sudden if you goes 17 higher it is way overpowered. Basically a 10 point window. Any DR has an effect (perhaps not a lot, but some). DR doesn't stack (this approach would allow shield DR to stack), and to get it you have to drop a weapon (or half of one), thus a balance.

[licho]

Generally i like ideas, the only thing which horrifies me is:
"1) Give Shields some passive hate (need to be careful to not unbalance intimidate)."
Since my squshy bard while using shield do not want any attencion untill he prepares its ballad.
Seriously, not every toon using shield will automaticly want agrro.

I like the idea of passive DR for plate/shield users, it sounds more naturally than the AC system, and seems to be easier to make working than AC.

In quite a lot tabletop RPG it works that way, and works.

About archery:
Ranged combat deserves its own topic, and it will be the long one.
Nevertheless, the aproach "maybe not powerful, but at least fun" is nice.

[Hakushi]

The problem with shields is: if you have a weapon in your off hand instead of a shield, you gain 20% more dps in most situations, and with the buffs you can have at high level, you end up hitting bosses like Arraetrikos with a 2 anyway even with the penality. One kind of solution would be to either give a boost of 20% dps to people using a shield, or remove the 20% chances to proc off hand weapon attacks if you don't have TWF feat. (This dosn't mean that I necesserily agree with said solution.)

[stille_nacht]

tanks definitely deserve a place in DDO, after all, they are technically as cookie cutter as it gets, every online game has tanking in it, in fact, i think tank may have been the "original" archetype for fantasy games.

[Lleren]

tanks definitely deserve a place in DDO, after all, they are technically as cookie cutter as it gets, every online game has tanking in it, in fact, i think tank may have been the "original" archetype for fantasy games.

Well the originals in the field where wargaming based, so there very well might have been "tanks" involved =D

That being said I do like the idea of adding more options to character building. Not everything has to be DPS based to be a worthwhile addition. Both Ranged and Sword and Board styles of play do need work.

Mind you I still love my Barbarian.

[AMDarkwolf]

Simple fix imo, and would still fit with the 'twitch' feeling of the game.

If you 'shield' block, a enemy hitting you would be 'staggered' and their attack sequence would be reset/slowed, but to get this effect u must shield block at the right time(IE Just holding shift won't make all the mobs around you staggered, you would have to have the mob attacking from the front, and would have to block 1/2 seconds--or something-- before the blow lands.)

Just an idea. Please don't neg rep me for this cuz I HOPE its not offending anyone. (LOL ive been neg repped for less )

[MarkusWolfe]

Perhaps half/full/full and a half BAB to AC is too high, but it would be nice fro the S&B to get a bonus that scaled with level.

[dng242]

The problem with shields is: if you have a weapon in your off hand instead of a shield, you gain 20% more dps in most situations, and with the buffs you can have at high level, you end up hitting bosses like Arraetrikos with a 2 anyway even with the penality. One kind of solution would be to either give a boost of 20% dps to people using a shield, or remove the 20% chances to proc off hand weapon attacks if you don't have TWF feat. (This dosn't mean that I necesserily agree with said solution.)

Of course, that is exactly what I wanted to avoid. The goal is to give S&B defensive flavor at the expense of DPS AND still make them playable. I'm just want some variation in Melee classes beyond DPS, DPS, DPS. I'm just afraid the Dev's are thinking along the lines you said above.