How about fixing without adding DPS

[dng242]

There a lot of character options that need a lot of work. Two that stand out are Sword and Board and Ranged. We all know they need help (well, those in the cookie cutter coalition probably don't agree). What I would like to ask the dev’s is stop the DPS arms race. The solution to everything doesn’t have to be increased DPS, yet that seems to always be the answer.

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I would really like to see Sword and Board made relevant in this game (e.g. make it an actual tank, not just a damage dealer with a bunch of hit points). I think there are several ways of doing this, but in my opinion they should not increase DPS. One thing I think is needed is passive stackable shield DR, and I mean real DR (e.g. 15 – 25+).
Of course, now you have the problem that you have a great DR, but no one is trying to hit you. So you need to increase agro somehow (intimidate is an obvious choice, but I like there to be several paths to the same goal, so what else…? Not certain but here are some ideas). 1) Give Shields some passive hate (need to be careful to not unbalance intimidate). 2) Allow shield users to use shield block (or similar) to provide area DR (say 10 - 15) to fellow combatants drawing agro (yeah, makes no since in the real world, but then we all stand next to each other swinging greataxes and never hit a good guy, so realism was thrown out a long time ago).

You could also have shields proc other things (e.g. crowd control, but personally I think they should stick with the Tank

I'm gussing people will flip over the high DR I'm proposing, but really, at the cost of a weapon (or half)? Overpowering? Not likely.

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Ranged users have the same basic problem. Please, don’t try to make them a DPS equivalent. Try something else. Crowd control is an obvious choice. Give them more ability to do the equivalent of hold, knockdown, hamstring, DR reduction, and make the DC’s based on the ranged combatants abilities not just some static DC of an item (e.g. base it off of a stat, or even a skill).

Of course, you could also give them more one shot kill ability. This has the problem of marginalizing that ability of the Arcane. It would have to be more complicated (e.g. hold first then kill shot, or some such balance).

They key would be some of these abilities would have to translate to bosses, or they aren’t viable. E.g. slow the bosses attack, reduce the bosses DR, things like that.
The nice thing here is Many shot would give them a bit of spice.

I've given some suggestions, they may or may not be workable, but the core idea is there. Find other answers than DPS to make characters viable in the game. Variety of the life blood of a game, so go out there and make some.

[SynalonEtuul]

I like some of these ideas. Also I agree in general that sword and shield fighting and ranged fighting both need some love.

I would point out though that certain instances of unrealism does not justify more instances of unrealism.

ALSO is there a better word than 'unrealism'? Jeez I spent like 5 minutes trying to think one up

[Baahb3]

I like many of the ideas here and would love to see some of them in game.

I think the problem right now is you don't need any of these things to complete quests, and I would dare say that these abitlies would not increase the effectivness of most groups more (or even as much) than an extra DPS character.

Quests would start to have to have aspects of them that would be significantly easier with a S&B tank or ranged characters for people to want one as opposed to the DPS giants of today.

[Kinerd]

I like some of these ideas. Also I agree in general that sword and shield fighting and ranged fighting both need some love.

I would point out though that certain instances of unrealism does not justify more instances of unrealism.

ALSO is there a better word than 'unrealism'? Jeez I spent like 5 minutes trying to think one up

Fantasticality.

[stille_nacht]

i agree with your general sentiment, but i do not agree that ranged should not be given more DPS.

1- This game is based on the original D&D

Therefore, it is preferable that classes adhere to classes in D&D

2- In original D&D, ranged damage was fine as a source of DPS (with feats) on single targets, as a pose to slow and only good DPS for 1 round every 6, or when enemies were all lined up. Rangers werent supposed to be crowd controllers or paralyzers (though they could function like this), they were supposed to snipe dangerous enemies, contribute well in killing bosses.

Therefore, Ranged damage should be made so that it compares to melee DPS, it does not have to be better than melee DPS, but it should at least be viable on single targets. Seeing as it already has multi-shot, i could easily see ranged being about 80% of melee damage non multi-ing, and have a very high burst of DPS during multi-shot.

Sword and Board, however, was supposed to provide the player with more defense while sacrificing offense, so more defense makes sense, and more threat makes that more viable.

[dng242]

I think the problem right now is you don't need any of these things to complete quests, and I would dare say that these abitlies would not increase the effectivness of most groups more (or even as much) than an extra DPS character.

You are correct in what you said there. I would just like more options and that is biased on my general like of both of these styles.

[dng242]

2- In original D&D, ranged damage was fine as a source of DPS (with feats) on single targets, as a pose to slow and only good DPS for 1 round every 6, or when enemies were all lined up. Rangers werent supposed to be crowd controllers or paralyzers (though they could function like this), they were supposed to snipe dangerous enemies, contribute well in killing bosses.

I have to admit I like good damage from a bow user as well, however, I think the game has morphed beyond that compared to PnP DnD. I'm just tired of the give more DPS solution to every problem, thus I suggested an altenate.

[MarkusWolfe]

For Sword and Board consider this: Give all players with light shields an AC bonus equal to half their BAB, all players with heavy shields an AC bonus equal to their BAB and all players with tower shields an AC bonus equal to one and a half times their BAB. That way, shields of all sizes can be useful at all levels, but you don't have it broken at any point.

[Lithic]

For Sword and Board consider this: Give all players with light shields an AC bonus equal to half their BAB, all players with heavy shields an AC bonus equal to their BAB and all players with tower shields an AC bonus equal to one and a half times their BAB. That way, shields of all sizes can be useful at all levels, but you don't have it broken at any point.

You think a +15 shield bonus at level 10 is not "broken at any point"?

AC is fine as it is until the late to end game. If anything, its TOO good at low levels. Adding such a bonus would make the early and middle levels even more trivial than they are now, as even the noob off the boat who found a masterwork tower in waterworks would be 95% immune to physical damage until they hit lvl 18 or so.

[Quarterling]

How about dual-wielding shields?

[Asketes]

your ideas aren't quite perfect, but those ideas seem to be well thought out..


i really appreciate the time you put into your ideas though man.


Those actually got me *a little* excited

[count_spicoli]

Ranger probably could use some jazzing bujt having never played one I can't say for sure. For a fighter I like the trade off between sword and board and dps. For example if I am with 3 casters, a cleric and a barb will shield up grab all aggro with intim and let casterss and barb do dirty work. Ran thru gianthold all night doing walk up elites this way and only had one wipe. Sure my kills were single digits but we were getting it done.

On the other hand if I am running with 2 monks, 2 barbs and healer I will grab two koph's and try not to embarress myself.(still do usually ha ha). I like the trade off for party make up and is what makes fighter fun to me.

Also to note I can wander around in most wilderness areas solo with sword and board and basically never get hit. Sure its slow and tedoius but is totally self sufficient. Saves hireling costs.

[Failedlegend]

i agree with your general sentiment, but i do not agree that ranged should not be given more DPS.

1- This game is based on the original D&D

Therefore, it is preferable that classes adhere to classes in D&D

I disagree, while we should try to follow the PnPs guidelines there NEEDS to be differences..why? PnP is a turn-based, usually grid based game and thus is built around that principle so stuff like being a ranged character brings a huge amount of safety and being a sheild/tank type you have lots of ways to discourage people from trying to walk past you after said ranged character (OAs,etc.)

Now DDO is a Real-Time Action RPG with the ability to free-roam (no squares/hexes, hard to implement OAs,etc.) thats a BIG difference so it needs some big allowances besides you find me a single PnP player that hasn't just started that plays Vanilla DnD (no house rules)...you can't so saying DDO can't implement house rules is short-sighted at best.....IOW sticking to the rules to the detriment of fun & functionality isn't a good thing

How about dual-wielding shields?

[dng242]

AC is fine as it is until the late to end game. If anything, its TOO good at low levels. Adding such a bonus would make the early and middle levels even more trivial than they are now, as even the noob off the boat who found a masterwork tower in waterworks would be 95% immune to physical damage until they hit lvl 18 or so.

That is a basic problem. The DR needs to really increase after about lvl 10 as AC is still viable through 12ish..

I had thought perhaps the DR should be something like 4x the natural shield AC, then add x2 enhancement bonus (+5 large shield would then be 18 DR). While that might be okay around lvl 17, at 8 (race required shield) it would be way over powered.

[Asketes]

nice!

[Westerner]

The AC ship sailed and sank 3 years ago.

I think phasing out AC in favor of DR has potential.

[Failedlegend]

nice!

You could even uses weapons since your hands are empty -10 to-hit though :P

The AC ship sailed and sank 3 years ago.

I think phasing out AC in favor of DR has potential.

Wow talk about a glass is half empty perspective....just because something has been broken for a long time doesn't mean it can't be fixed....first step get rid of epic lol (naw they've promised their doing a balancing pass on epic since they to have realized its well broken)

[Westerner]

Wow talk about a glass is half empty perspective....just because something has been broken for a long time doesn't mean it can't be fixed....

Naw, it means after years of threads about how AC is broken and many ideas on how to fix it I'm realistic about the chances of that actually happening.

Which is why I think scrapping AC and moving to a DR based system has potential.

See, the problem with AC is it only provides for a range of 20 useful values. Whereas DR is additive, and every little bit helps that much more.

Probably not the first time that's been suggested either. This week.

[Cyr]

Interesting suggestion about S&B, but I really don't think it would fly. Reasoning follows...

* Completely trivializes certain content. A 15-25 stackable dr would allow for essentally unkillable by weapon damage toons in all but certain end game content.

* Group shield benefits would break certain encounters (but only in combination or with the passive stacking dr for a shield user) such as pretty much any melee based fight like DQ.

* How could an enemy kill a well built dr arcane or divine? DoD + shield dr + demonic shield + aura regen...

[ckorik]

* Completely trivializes certain content. A 15-25 stackable dr would allow for essentally unkillable by weapon damage toons in all but certain end game content.

Well I disagree - here is why:

Scenario 1) (all 1st life toons) - party with 1 cleric healing - 1 wizard - and 4 dual wielding full out dps kensai users that tanked con. All lvl 20 - half without heavy fort - some with less than 250 hps.

Wizard learned enough to have a mass hold DC of 35 - ignores spell resistance - hits all mobs - party takes 0 damage - mows through quest like it was butter - struggles on boss a bit but quest is toast.

Scenario 2) (same lvl and gear) - Wizard is now a intimitank - with a shield - with stackable (OMG 50 DR) - tank picks up agro - takes moderate damage cleric can heal through - party struggles slightly less on boss but quest takes longer (no auto crit on non held mobs).


How is 1 ok but 2 is not?

More tools for non-standard groups to deal with content is better IMO.