Training Dummy Testing

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Finally after five years of being a Rgr and bow fan, I finally have a lvl 20 Rgr!

So I decided to do some tests with melee and ranged on the only static, reliable source of DPS testing in the game.....the training dummy.

Elf Rgr 20, AA, 22 Str, (she has high Dex)(and forgot to use Ram's Might for test.) Favored Enemy Construct. Damage enhancements for both Bow and Long Sword.

+4 Holy Burst Long Sword of Pure Good / +1 Holy Burst Short Sword of Pure Good
1 minute 12 seconds

+5 Holy, Acid Burst, GS Long Sword / +5 Holy, GS Short Sword
1 minute exactly

+5 Anarchic Long Bow of Pure Good, w/Slayer Arrows and without Manyshot
1 minute 13 seconds

The Holy(burst) and anarchic are meaningless for this test. (immune)
And I really need to go find equal weapons....like maybe buy non-magical ones
to do an precise test.

Plus the training Dummy is immune to crits. Which does not make it an ideal test platform......but it's the closest we have in game.



My conclusion is that for my build ranged w/slayer arrows are almost as much DPS as melee.

Improved Precise shot would put Ranged over the top. Add mobs that run from you and have to move to get melee weps on target.

High AC mobs would also favor Ranged becase of my Dex. Although that would seldom be an issue outside of Epics, and in there things are usually held or stunned so their AC wont matter.

I did do a test without slayer arrows. 2 minutes 12 seconds.
Obviously Slayer Arrows are a major source of DPS with a bow.
I sinceraly doubt that any build would do more damage with ranged over melee without slayer arrows.

The training dummy is not critable. So it is hard to say how crits would effect the DPS.
My char has Improved Crit Ranged only. But eventually will have Min II melee weps.

Crits would also favor bulds with Kopeshes.





Anyway. Don't let someone else tell you how much DPS you do or do not do with ranged over melee......go test it yourself and see.





(oh, and Slayer Arrows, Ram's Might, and Manyshot took that dummy down in 15 seconds! )

[grodon9999]

Come on, slow day?

This is not a valid test, and for what it's worth my 40 STR non-AAs can usually get the dummy down in a many-shot with a lightning II bow. It doesn't have enough HP to get the difference between manshot on/off.

[KingOfCheese]

The issue here is that your range without manyshot and your TWF did very little damage relative to the big hitters in the game.

Big-hitting melee are dropping the dummy in 15-20 seconds (this includes rogues and TWF rangers--not just barbs and kensais).

I agree that you've shown that you don't need to put the bow down. But if the goal was to show that rangers shouldn't twf when not many-shotting, more generally, I don't think that this makes the point. A twf-dps-focused ranger (not that they all need to be such) will give a different result.

[hecate355]

21 sec on my barb, 28 on rogue, and heureka! its still bloody hard to qualify as dps on that rogue, at least to some folks out there

[Aurora1979]

Takes me about 2 mins with my wizard

swipe,swipe,swipe....

My guildies stopped helping me and set up a chat channel so they could all call to stations and watch me.... sometimes they have time to finish off a quick ToD and get there before im done.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only real purpose for the thread is to show that people need to go test their own build to decide what style is better for them to use. Instead of letting other people try to play their toon for them.

More Str would apply to both styles. Equal weps should not make one style better than the other I think.
But I assume a Str build with better crit weapons would favor melee.
Just not by as much as many people seem to think it does.

Lots more testing would really be needed of course. And I wish we had a critable dummy to test on.

(or one with more HP for beefier builds.)

[uhgungawa]

Have 4 TWF (2 rangers, 1 fighter, 1 monk) and all 4 of them drop the dummy in around the 20 second range.

[uhgungawa]

More Str would apply to both styles. Yes, but with more Str and less Dex on a bow = more misses
Equal weps should not make one style better than the other I think. Yes
But I assume a Str build with better crit weapons would favor melee. Yes
Just not by as much as many people seem to think it does. By a lot

Lots more testing would really be needed of course. Yes
And I wish we had a critable dummy to test on. Last I checked a Dark monk can make it crittable

In RED. And the Dummy also doesn't allow for sneak attack either. (Dark Monk make this possible?)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

For you Rgrs who are doing it fast with melee, how much of a difference do you see between melee and ranged?

Why?

What gear is it that throws melee so far over the top? or is is just Str? (Power Attack?)

Obviously my poorly geared Rgr has a long way to go. But from testing her, I don't see why Ranged is considered so far behind. (at least in a non-crittable target.)

Best guess I have now, is that higher Str and PA, would get in more damage to make up for the Slayer arrows that produce slower.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The more I think about it, there are a ton of variables that could be tested to see what kind of results I could get.

Haste, Rage.
Madstone, Ranged alacrity.

Any damage or speed buff might throw the numbers much higher toward melee. Since in theory you are getting more melee swings in.

And the Slayer Arrows are totally dependant on how many 20s you roll.

But I much prefer an ingame test to the spread sheet statistics normally thrown around the forums.

And I don't think people should tell others how to play their build, since builds and gear vary so much.

[uhgungawa]

For you Rgrs who are doing it fast with melee, how much of a difference do you see between melee and ranged?

Why?

What gear is it that throws melee so far over the top? or is is just Str? (Power Attack?)Both

Obviously my poorly geared Rgr has a long way to go. But from testing her, I don't see why Ranged is considered so far behind. (at least in a non-crittable target.)Gear does have a large part to do with it, but RoF outside of manyshot is too slow.

Best guess I have now, is that higher Str and PA, would get in more damage to make up for the Slayer arrows that produce slower.

Besides the RoF issue most quests are not designed to give Ranged Fighting a place to shine. And the biggest problem is with most (not all) of the people doing it. I have seen only a small hand full of people that range effectively in a group setting. The best ones are the ones that in a raid you never even noticed that they had a bow out the entire time.

[Kriogen]

9 seconds left on Divine Power clickie on my WF Wizard17/Rogue2/Fighter1. With +1 greateaxe of Greater Construct Bane.

DP clickie has 1min 6 seconds duration.

And its a caster wizzy, not melee speced. Just starting STR 16 plus the usual items/buffs. No epics. Only +3 STR tome and +1 ex STR from ToD ring is not 'what you can get on AH'.

Do something. You don't want to be out DPS'd by a haste bot

[Malison]

Here's some more raw data if people want to draw conclusions.

12 ftr/7rgr/1brd
greater weapon spec slashing, +1 dmg enh slashing. +0 feat/enh damage ranged. Not kensai in either combat form.
favored enemy not including construct
improved crit slash and ranged
slayer arrows
power attack
ram's might: str 38
guild +2 damage buff
haste, haste boost 4, human versatility damage 2
no other alacrity bonuses to melee or ranged from gear, classes, or enhancements.

Lit2 bow, no manyshot, no slayer arrows
1 minute 9 seconds. 2 lightning strikes, including the shot that killed it. Overkilled by ~50%
54 seconds. 2 lightning strikes.

Lit2 khopesh / +5 khopesh of pure good
22 seconds, 1 lightning strike.
29 seconds, 0 lightning strikes.
29 seconds, 0 lightning strikes.
23 seconds, 1 lightning strike.

Lit2 bow, manyshot, no slayer arrows
17 seconds.

Lit2 bow, manyshot, slayer arrows
13 seconds. 4 slayer arrows, 0 lightning strikes.
18 seconds. 1 slayer arrow, 0 lightning strikes.
13 seconds. 3 slayer arrows, 0 lightning strikes.
11 seconds. 3 slayer arrows, 2 lightning strikes.
15 seconds. 3 slayer arrows, including the shot that killed it, 0 lightning strikes.
14 seconds. 3 slayer arrows, 0 lightning strikes.

My conclusions:
(1) haste boost didn't seem to affect ranged nearly as dramatically as melee.
(2) lightning strikes are unreliable.
(3) manyshot > melee >> not-manyshot range

Edit: didn't notice this was in the Ranger forum, so my numbers aren't as directly applicable. But I stand by them, in the application I thought I was addressing.

[uhgungawa]

The problem with Ranged Combat ATM

1) RoF still to slow. Needs another 10%-20% bump Manyshot should be just the gravy on top.

2) Dex base is not comparable to Str base. This goes for Melee and Ranged, the problem is Ranged goes by Dex to hit. So we need either a feat of specialty bows (named loot) at several level ranges that use a Str mod to hit to make a Str Range build manageable.

3) More quests that let Range shine.

4) More good top tier players to make Ranged builds to show people how do to it effectively

5) lot more to come, I'm sure

[grodon9999]

The problem with Ranged Combat ATM

2) Dex base is not comparable to Str base. This goes for Melee and Ranged, the problem is Ranged goes by Dex to hit. So we need either a feat of specialty bows (named loot) at several level ranges that use a Str mod to hit to make a Str Range build manageable.

In here 34-point life my elf has a 34/34 STR/DEX. Seems to be the sweet spot of a split. This did take two +3 tomes.

[testing1234]

28sec lvl13 warchanter bard7/6fighter TR (not kensai1)
gave myself
guild +2damage +2str, haste, hasteboost2, madstonerage, bard song, PA
weapon radiance rapier, +3icyburst of PG rapier

the bard song kinda messes things up as its a party boost and other melees test without bard song but cant very well test without songs on a bard. also i only madstone on end-bosses and rapiers extremely crit dependent.

still think it does show that melee is faster killing dummy then ranged
edit: well not counting multishot and we all know multi is OP

[Glenalth]

+4 Holy Burst Long Sword of Pure Good / +1 Holy Burst Short Sword of Pure Good
1 minute 12 seconds

+5 Holy, Acid Burst, GS Long Sword / +5 Holy, GS Short Sword
1 minute exactly

+5 Anarchic Long Bow of Pure Good, w/Slayer Arrows and without Manyshot
1 minute 13 seconds

Your numbers are all really poor here.

The reason for your results is that every added point of damage helps TWF over twice as much as it helps ranged due to attack speed. Since you are doing low damage and using weapons with poor damage effects to begin with, that 25pts per hit from Slaying imbued arrows is making up a very large percentage of your damage and skewing your results towards ranged.

There is a point where if you build your character badly enough that ranged can surpass melee damage even with the disparity in attack speeds. Don't be that person.



On the opposite side of things from a 20 ranger AA with a decent strength, extra damage from various loots and red dragon armor, and 3 past life feats...

If the training dummy is in autocrit mode from being killed already, I'll just melee with a pair of Earth II picks and it will drop in about 12-14 seconds. It's probably closer to 30 seconds when not auto-crit, but I typically just pop a Manyshot if that's the case so I haven't paid attention to timing as much there.

Manyshot falls in the range of 7-20 seconds with 11-12 being the norm. That should come out to around 44-48 seconds plus 0-3 more arrows for regular rate of fire.

[Khanyth]

My barb just glares at it and the dummy dies.

It fails its glare-save every time

[SiliconShadow]

Average from 10 goes:

Pure ranger AA
54s - Just self buffed + slayer arrows (No FE)
39s - Just self buffed + slayer arrows (With FE)
8s - Self buffed + Slayer arrows + FE + Many shot

Ranger 12 / Rogue 6 / Fighter 2 - Tempest II
56s Self buffed no FE
38s Self buffed with FE
32s Self buffed with FE and Haste boost II

Pure ranger AA mellee
94s - Just self buffed no FE
82s - Just self buffed with FE

My conclusion is my AA ain't putting down his bow unless it is for A) Vorpals B) WoP or C) The love of a beautiful woman.

AA Stats: 38str 34dex 24con
Tempest stats: 36str 30dex 28con

Yes the AA does have slightly better equipment and is a 36point build where the tempest is a 32 but the average DPS is way ahead on my AA on non critable targets..

Now them if you hold them it is hard to decide, 2 heavy picks 100% off hand hits and 80% dmg and haste boost II vs IPS many shot, the answer is the situation, non crittable and boss targets the AA comes out ontop, more than one target in a line the AA comes out ontop one target held the tempest wins unlesst he AA has many shot.

AA DO have more dps when built up than most mellee but it depends if the target is crittable and how many targets are present, vs an elite Horoth I would take my AA any day.

Disclaimer as OP says, these are my characters my builds so I know what works best, sometimes taking 2 WoP rapiers out is the best course of action and you don't count DPS in those situations it is merely tactics and situational stat damage.

[Tobril]

Got you all beat, my monk can kill it in a single attack.

(but then I have to buy a new one)