Str-based vs. Dex-based: trade-off between reflex save and damage?

[AMDarkwolf]

Until game mechanics change again

Correct. (If)

I want nothing more than to see dex based builds up there next to str based. No I don't think a 40 dex toon should do the same dmg that a 40 str toon, but I DO want to see the dex toon contribute as much as the str does. This is not the case now, a knuckle dragging beefcake can do all the stuff a dex can just as good, AND he does more damage, hits more often, and, because he can do the last 2, survive longer.


And Sorry but I really do not think my last post deserved neg rep, find one of my other posts that deserves it not that one lol

[elujin]

Thucydides04, I really don't think that DEX-based is good for a newer player.

The strongest point of going DEX-based is the AC that comes with it. However, in order to get enough to still be semi-reasonable at end-game, the player would need Monk for WIS-to-AC, Titan raid pack for Chattering Ring, Vale pack and knowledge on how to farm Icy Raiments, plat to spare for constantly drinking Barkskin potions (if not Ranger), plat to buy Armour +8 bracers (and other armoured bracers during leveling), plat to buy good rapiers, and shield wands + the UMD to use them (again, if not Ranger).


While I agree AC is really good for self-sufficiency, it takes a lot of resources, knowledge, and gear, most of which I honestly don't see a new player having.

for newer players its easyer on the stats more points for con and int more to hit and rapiers ar cheaper then khopeshes
all these things can be done on a str rog but it takes gear

[Thucydides04]

Thought this thread was dead. -_-

You've been back and fourth on every possible aspect of why Dex is better to you in this thread Thucy. You've worked numbers in your favor to gain a +1 base to hit, then claimed that it was the max possible Str and Dex setup, and that Dex was coming out ahead in the end. You've said that its all for the AC. You've said the damage Str based offers doesn't matter due to the majority of the damage being from SA. You've said that the reflex saves make a difference. You've said its easier for new players. You've advocated building for weapons that are clearly better on trash.

And now you're saying its because Dex based can be more self sufficient (what?). Even contradicting yourself saying that AC isn't the goal since new players won't have access to the gear. Yet, its still easier for new players, you said.

Next you'll be telling us that without being Dex based our hide, move silently, tumble, and pick lock skills will be terribly gimp and useless I assume? I see no other angle for you to cover once this supposed "better self sufficiency" is shown to be like most else you've said, false.

I have not changed my views yet during this thread. Perhaps you should consider taking a reading comprehension course. I posted my build very early on in this thread. AC toons are far more survivable than non-AC toons. Furthermore, I never said AC is not the goal of newer players. In fact, most newer players will find it quite easy to get a relevant AC until they hit Amrath:

10 base
12 dex (34dex)
6 wis (22 wis)
6 dt
1 ritual
1 dodge
5 protection
(1)halfling
2/5 defensive stance/ce
2 chaosgarde
2 grtr parrying wpn
3 bark
4 shield clickies which are easy to get/ or wands
=54(55)/57(58)

That is an easy to acquire ac and will be helpful in everything before amrath

By that time they should be able to find a skellie group and get some +7 bracers at least, which will add 3 more to a max of 61.

As far as damage goes, I ran the computations on the dps spreadsheet and stand by my assertions. SA is where the majority of dps comes from for a rogue.

Khopeshes are far more expensive than rapiers. If you insist on going str based I would advocate a dwarf(which is included in f2p) with dual dwaxes. Far cheaper, eliminates the hp issue most noobs seem to be plagued with and has some decent enhancements.

If the player has leveled the toon to 20 and has acquired some gear, respec is very easy these days and at that point I would consider reccomending TRing into a str based if the guy was trying to break into a top end guild/raid channel. But even then, his improved dps from going str based is not going to be as noticeable as when he is able to avoid taking damage and throw a few scrolls in a pinch when the group hits a SNAFU.

[Thucydides04]

Khop wielders just got the nerf bat with changes to autocrit.... rapiers became even more useful with the removal of epic wards.... w/p, w/e will now be an effective tool for handling trash in epics.

[Angelus_dead]

Khop wielders just got the nerf bat with changes to autocrit.... rapiers became even more useful with the removal of epic wards.... w/p, w/e will now be an effective tool for handling trash in epics.

Where did you get information that epic resistance to ability score damage will be removed?? I saw that they're losing Deathblock, but that's all.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Khop wielders just got the nerf bat with changes to autocrit.... rapiers became even more useful with the removal of epic wards.... w/p, w/e will now be an effective tool for handling trash in epics.

Actually, Pick users got the nerf bat.

Khopesh is back on top.

[Raithe]

AC toons are far more survivable than non-AC toons.

What quests are you talking about? I can't remember the last time I ran a quest where I even considered consulting the AC score of a character, including my fighter. My fighter has umd for stoneskin and blur. He has a shield for turtling up (DR-wise) when and if the going gets rough. For everything else its trip, stun, and DPS that matter, never AC.

Furthermore, I never said AC is not the goal of newer players. In fact, most newer players will find it quite easy to get a relevant AC until they hit Amrath:

10 base
12 dex (34dex)
6 wis (22 wis)
6 dt
1 ritual
1 dodge
5 protection
(1)halfling
2/5 defensive stance/ce
2 chaosgarde
2 grtr parrying wpn
3 bark
4 shield clickies which are easy to get/ or wands
=54(55)/57(58)

That is an easy to acquire ac and will be helpful in everything before amrath

Elite troll pathfinders in a level 13 quest (Gianthold) hit my 55 AC fighter 80% of the time (I could probably find the AC thread where I tested it, but I'm not going to bother). Note that the AC gear you mentioned above takes up a ton of gear slots that are better used for deathblock and negative energy mitigation, immunities, resistances, and damage bonuses.

If you want to metagame DDO, then strength-based is the way to go. The sources for strength buffing seem to be everywhere, and most of the weight of the path to a high reflex save has been stuffed in enhancements or class splashing (or feats like insightful reflexes). Of course those of us who have no interest in metagaming a twitch FPS do just fine with dex-based characters, but there is little doubt anymore for me that the dex-based part is more than "thematically" relevant to game success.

[Lemanchot]

Hey guys I got an idea... let fail rogues/player playing in the way they want instead to keep posting in a useless thread most good players already knows the answer and pulluating room over 1st page in this forum's section.

This thread is almost good as discussion of Pulp or no pulp. So guys... How do you like your orange juice? I,ve heard pulp has more vitamins isn't true ?

Oh wow somebody already mentioned it... oh wait it was me!

[grodon9999]

Where did you get information that epic resistance to ability score damage will be removed?? I saw that they're losing Deathblock, but that's all.

there's been no comment either way from devs regarding this. SInce helplessness no longer means auto-crit I can't see it being un-balanced.

[Emili]

I have not changed my views yet during this thread. Perhaps you should consider taking a reading comprehension course. I posted my build very early on in this thread. AC toons are far more survivable than non-AC toons. Furthermore, I never said AC is not the goal of newer players. In fact, most newer players will find it quite easy to get a relevant AC until they hit Amrath:

10 base
12 dex (34dex)
6 wis (22 wis)
6 dt
1 ritual
1 dodge
5 protection
(1)halfling
2/5 defensive stance/ce
2 chaosgarde
2 grtr parrying wpn
3 bark
4 shield clickies which are easy to get/ or wands
=54(55)/57(58)

As far as damage goes, I ran the computations on the dps spreadsheet and stand by my assertions. SA is where the majority of dps comes from for a rogue.

Run them again... this time gear the toon for str instead of all the AC defensive gear replace it with things like ravager, epic claw, madstone, etc... SA is a good % but the difference between a "DPS" set up character vs a "AC" set-up character is more than comapring what comes out of Str vs Dex or a "Khopesh" vs "Rapier". Point in hand ... an AC based rogue is not really utilizing AC if it's speaking about SA. The two are mutually exclusive you are not relying on AC if you're looking for SA even if you apply radiance here.

I'll show you something... old build and I used to tease Aranticus that he took the scope of the character from my prior build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171420 ... as you note are two differing gear lists ... one for tanking and one for DPS even back in that time, reason being is there are a lot more to DPS than just Str and Weapons.

Now then... I am going to draw some scope in picture of the meta game. What it's truely like and what the differences amount to. "Gear" if I join the creame of Khyber DPS in any epic or raid i.e. an Elite TOD - the scope of the quest become one shoe on the left the other on the right... four or five max'd DPS toons on sulu's back kills poor sulu off within a minute ... the tanker of Horoth even if AC dumped on it really is not needing so much ... the cleric walks out with half a mana bar. Likewise in a group of "more survivable toons" when mitigation and AC come into play Sulu going down in two to three minutes, the Horoth tanker and AC build saved the cleric mana ... the overall time to kill however longer - the cleric walks out with half a mana bar.

The trade off actually is - "time".

Not long ago Axer posted his - I soloed Sins elite on my barb - simply mass DPS HP and SF pots. When Junts said he was going to take his AC pally and do the same - Axer posted a snide coment 'bout his where-about's - bet he's still in Sins elite. Of course I knew Axer could solo so because I already had run it with less of a barb and his really geared to hilt... I also had so with my fighter mixing between dps and turtled down mode on occasion... Turtling down the differences are "Time". DPS is time and AC is also time.

Had conversation with Doctr once and explained to him ... I try to play towards the parties strengths and weaknesses. He asked me what I meant by such ... and so explained I increase HP and surviability and less agression (take less risk) while in am lower DPS party but swing towards the other end in the higher DPS party ... the later affords me so.

[Emili]

Actually, Pick users got the nerf bat.

Khopesh is back on top.

This is true and am wondering why I bothered to start gearing up picks?

[Emili]

Thucydides04, I really don't think that DEX-based is good for a newer player.

The strongest point of going DEX-based is the AC that comes with it. However, in order to get enough to still be semi-reasonable at end-game, the player would need Monk for WIS-to-AC, Titan raid pack for Chattering Ring, Vale pack and knowledge on how to farm Icy Raiments, plat to spare for constantly drinking Barkskin potions (if not Ranger), plat to buy Armour +8 bracers (and other armoured bracers during leveling), plat to buy good rapiers, and shield wands + the UMD to use them (again, if not Ranger).


While I agree AC is really good for self-sufficiency, it takes a lot of resources, knowledge, and gear, most of which I honestly don't see a new player having.

AC gearing is as intensive as DPS gearing ... fact is DPS gearing is easier accomplished much the time as much more gear exists in this area. The reason - the devs apparently view resource use and management as part of the game.

[Jaid314]

Elite troll pathfinders in a level 13 quest (Gianthold) hit my 55 AC fighter 80% of the time (I could probably find the AC thread where I tested it, but I'm not going to bother). Note that the AC gear you mentioned above takes up a ton of gear slots that are better used for deathblock and negative energy mitigation, immunities, resistances, and damage bonuses.

If you want to metagame DDO, then strength-based is the way to go. The sources for strength buffing seem to be everywhere, and most of the weight of the path to a high reflex save has been stuffed in enhancements or class splashing (or feats like insightful reflexes). Of course those of us who have no interest in metagaming a twitch FPS do just fine with dex-based characters, but there is little doubt anymore for me that the dex-based part is more than "thematically" relevant to game success.

to be fair, 80% may not seem like a great thing, but it's still a reduction in the amount of damage you take. but it does take a ton of gear, so not necessarily worth it :P