Sins Elite Elitism

[Quikster]

Heavily edited the above to the "sweet spots": I hate quoting large posts in full.

At the end, you claim you never say it to be "bad" to use it... but in the beginning you said it is a "sign of newbness". These two sentences seem to be in opposition to one another.
Nothing wrong with being a newb bro.
Also, "First, I would likely never pug spots on any amrath run."

But, you said, in response to someone else saying they'd take him on their run:

correct, Likely Id never pug anything thats a 6 man, I occasionally do but not very often. So if I did, and the ranger hit the lfm, short of someone else hitting the lfm that I knew and liked, Id take him. Why? Because I like running with people I like over people I dont know.

So which is it? You'd pug him in, or you wouldn't?
Like I said, I would take him
Then the last tidbit:



To this, I fully agree with you. Just because the MyDDO "snapshot" looks legit, it is in no way a guarantee of player skill or cooperativeness.

However, I will add that the inverse is not necessarily true. While MyDDO doesn't have a "Player Skill" rating anywhere, gear choices, build choices, etc. can be a satisfactory display of "lack of player skill". And its more than just checking HP/Fortification/Date of Snapshot Update. Its looking over all the pieces of gear, confirming lack of haggle gear, and noting that it is instead the player's "Combat attire", and then still finding it to be... well, lacking.
Um, I think your inverse here is off but whatever I get your point. Here I disagre. The build coulda been rolled and been made poorly. However, he coulda still learned to play and figured, *** Ill roll with it till I tr. I dont want to spend the money to lr when im just going to tr.
But in sum: Whether or not you agree with MyDDO usage, you would have *not* accepted this person into your group, like the majority of other thread posters have said? You don't pug Amrath, after all.

As I said, I would have accepted an unknown ranger into the group no matter what his hp, if I had been pugging. Yes I pug amrath quests about as often as anythign else. Hardly ever. That doesnt mean I dont ever pug it, I hardly ever pug it.

Anyone who's got half a brain can tell when someone has swapped out their con item for a haggle item or their minos for a a teleport mask etc.

But as an example, I've seen a WF caster in myddo wearing a helmet of inner focus and a moderate fort belt. When seeing that you need to assume that they are wearing that gear intentionally and lack toughness.

Yes myddo is a guessing game sometimes, but it's also a good primer on the character and sometimes the player too. No matter what you do, if you look on myddo and see a character with 8 or 10 con they're going to be squishy no matter what gear they put on.

Im not sure I see the problem with the above gear set up.

[Acehole31]

But as an example, I've seen a WF caster in myddo wearing a helmet of inner focus and a moderate fort belt. When seeing that you need to assume that they are wearing that gear intentionally and lack toughness.

What's the problem with that, I wonder? Warforged get a racial bonus of 25% fortification, which DOES stack with item-granted fortification. Moderate fort = 75%, + 25% racial = 100% fortification. Nothing wrong with that, and the dude is after Concentration - Nothing wrong with that either, especially if you happen to be scroll tossing a lot. I don't see anything wrong with that gear setup in the least. To me it demonstrates knowledge of the class and build you're playing while also fulfilling your personal gear requirements, all without breaking the bank on uber gear.

[geoffhanna]

Actually, wasn't my group or my call. Good fail on reading OP. Specifically stated as such.

"Your group your call" was intended to be generic.

And if you would have brought him, I challenge you to the same as I have the other respondents of like mind: go do it.

That is just silly. Why would I do that? We all know that pugs can attract odd characters. I already know that some will be poorly played, some will be poorly built, some will be poorly equipped, some will be all of the above.

Actually, as I type that I realize that I am describing my own characters as of several years ago. Fortunately others were willing to let me in their groups anyway.

Now my characters are only poorly played

As a final thought, even though this is an unpopular sentiment, I really do believe the game is better served (and by extension, our enjoyment of it) if we spent more time having fun and being willing to fail, and less time ostracizing those who don't or can't measure up to this month's popular standards.

Anyway, rock on, your group your call

[Kominalito]

declining what is essentially a crate with manyshot is not absurd. what is absurd is making it to level 20 with what appears to be the HP of a crate. on Korthos. in town. not even the explorer map.

[moops]

I don't MyDDO, and couldnt imagine ever using it for a quest.

Once I decide to put up an LFM I take anyone who hits it as long as they are one of the classes needed, and usually I don't put certain classes.


Edited because I just woke up and read as Invasion elite lol--Sins elite is not a hard quest by any means, and one of the easiest ones out there to run on Elite.

[Quikster]

To those who say "I would have taken him":
1. I posted this right before we actually started the quest, 10:45 PM EST on Saturday. One might assume that the player is an adult in the North America region with standard play times.
2. The party was open simply as "Sins of Attrition" under the Quest Panel, and Elite as the detail notes.
3. I encourage each and every one of the two of you to hop onto Sarlona this evening, and pop up your own LFM for Sins Elite. Heck, run it 3-4 times with all sorts of new people.
4. You can have, at most, *1* other person in there you know and trust. The other 4 must be complete strangers to you. The other 4 must participate throughout the entirety of the quest.

And well.. we'll just see how things go, yes?

Bro I was taking you little newbs through this content before many of you even had level 20's

[moops]

To those who say "I would have taken him":
1. I posted this right before we actually started the quest, 10:45 PM EST on Saturday. One might assume that the player is an adult in the North America region with standard play times.
2. The party was open simply as "Sins of Attrition" under the Quest Panel, and Elite as the detail notes.
3. I encourage each and every one of the two of you to hop onto Sarlona this evening, and pop up your own LFM for Sins Elite. Heck, run it 3-4 times with all sorts of new people.
4. You can have, at most, *1* other person in there you know and trust. The other 4 must be complete strangers to you. The other 4 must participate throughout the entirety of the quest.

And well.. we'll just see how things go, yes?

I do this quite a bit, and have had some amazing, beautiful experiences because of it.
On my Clerics Last life, my Guildie Rev Helped me run all of Amrath on Elite, we did it with 4 pugs 17-20--3 of them chinese, and they all listened which was important since we were either invising or using Symbols of Persuasion. . .it went crazy smooth.

Another time that stands out for this exact quest is when I put up an LFM for anyclass for 3 spots since I was on my FVS, we filled and brought another cleric who was absolutely freaked out that we were doing it on Elite, since he had never finished on Normal--he was quite shocked at how fast and smooth the run went.

I see some amazing guilds with all the best gear and great players wipe in raids, or have costly raids quite a bit, or even have quite cr@ppy quests--I think that a huge part of this is that people only know how to do things one way, and do not even consider other strategies--everything is TOP DPS TOP HP. . .No one knows what to do if something goes wrong.

One thing about running with pugs is that it makes you think outside of the Norm and it keeps you on your toes, I have seen some of the best recoveries ever. Like the Monk who is the last one standing in part 2 of TOD, and saves the Raid. These are the moments that make the game for me--you don't just get that good by always running in safe groups.

I dare you to do the same, and see if it makes you a better player, we all have room for improvement.

[Quikster]

I do this quite a bit, and have had some amazing, beautiful experiences because of it.
On my Clerics Last life, my Guildie Rev Helped me run all of Amrath on Elite, we did it with 4 pugs 17-20--3 of them chinese, and they all listened which was important since we were either invising or using Symbols of Persuasion. . .it went crazy smooth.

Another time that stands out for this exact quest is when I put up an LFM for anyclass for 3 spots since I was on my FVS, we filled and brought another cleric who was absolutely freaked out that we were doing it on Elite, since he had never finished on Normal--he was quite shocked at how fast and smooth the run went.

I see some amazing guilds with all the best gear and great players wipe in raids, or have costly raids quite a bit, or even have quite cr@ppy quests--I think that a huge part of this is that people only know how to do things one way, and do not even consider other strategies--everything is TOP DPS TOP HP. . .No one knows what to do if something goes wrong.

One thing about running with pugs is that it makes you think outside of the Norm and it keeps you on your toes, I have seen some of the best recoveries ever. Like the Monk who is the last one standing in part 2 of TOD, and saves the Raid. These are the moments that make the game for me--you don't just get that good by always running in safe groups.

I dare you to do the same, and see if it makes you a better player, we all have room for improvement.

Well said, +1 cuz youre my kinda nub!

[seskie1]

Our guild leader has requested us to not use myddo as a weeding tool but as a tool, sure this has put me in runs with 250 HP clerics who didn't know about SP conservation and worse but that has helped me learn the limitations of my characters and me as a player. It has helped me figure out what strategies should I adopt to in the situations. Sometimes it does a couple of tough runs, to find out what you need to improve your own character on. So that in the future you can step up and make up for anybody elses shortcomings. I understand that this is my opinion and not how you might want to spend your time logged in but just sharing my 2cents.

[NaturalHazard]

i personally have a lvl 20 elven AA don't recall start con off hand but at 20 have 340hp.
The total include minos, a dusk heart and a +6 con item, no greensteel items as of yet but ocasionally have a problem staying alive mostly due to not watching hp. Seems sometimes I forget to cast healing on myself (also have 562 sp ) . Since joining a guild I don't solo as much anymore and we usually have ahealer or 2 in grp.

Not sure if it is elitist or just rudeness but rangers are almost always auto declined sadly. I use a bow but know when to switch to my dual wield weps appropriate for task at hand... If you never run with rangers, how will you find the ones that do contribute to your group??? just my op take it or leave it or just plain ignore it as you wish

ditch the dusk heart and get a greater false life item, oh and get draconic vitality from agents of argoseson sorry cant spell it the dudes who give out quests in giant hold and reavers.

[die]

Forgive me for being too lazy too do the math, but 240 HP at lv 20 is that even possible?

[die]

i personally have a lvl 20 elven AA don't recall start con off hand but at 20 have 340hp.
The total include minos, a dusk heart and a +6 con item, no greensteel items as of yet but ocasionally have a problem staying alive mostly due to not watching hp. Seems sometimes I forget to cast healing on myself (also have 562 sp ) . Since joining a guild I don't solo as much anymore and we usually have ahealer or 2 in grp.

Not sure if it is elitist or just rudeness but rangers are almost always auto declined sadly. I use a bow but know when to switch to my dual wield weps appropriate for task at hand... If you never run with rangers, how will you find the ones that do contribute to your group??? just my op take it or leave it or just plain ignore it as you wish

wowo if you you myddo doomlord on "orien" he's first ranger life he has over 500 hp and over 600 mana.. just saying.. no ac tho lol and the next 2 lives he seems too be going down hill lol

[Beethoven]

Bro I was taking you little newbs through this content before many of you even had level 20's

Or any of us really since before that content was released we all capped at level 16. Just saying ;p

[Clay]

Not elitist....by amrath (well really way before, but being generous here) any class needs more hp than that. And then add in you are doing elite..unacceptable.

You elitist powergamer. Learn to take the time and smell the roses why don't you.

[stille_nacht]

ehh, myddoing isnt exactly accurate :[, doesnt show my caster's pale lavendar ioun stone, staff of the petitioner, regalia of the phoenix, upgrade kormor's ring... etc. etc.

[Quikster]

Or any of us really since before that content was released we all capped at level 16. Just saying ;p

That was kinda the point....

[MsEricka]

But as an example, I've seen a WF caster in myddo wearing a helmet of inner focus and a moderate fort belt. When seeing that you need to assume that they are wearing that gear intentionally and lack toughness.

I'm quoting myself here, and I never said there was anything wrong with it. You're all trying to jump to conclusions, and the wrong one at that.

My only point to that statement, as it states, with that gear the caster would MOST LIKELY be missing toughness. Depending on what other gear they are wearing you could essentially judge that. Perhaps something with a blue slot, or a Quorforged Docent.

I was attempting to respond to someone saying that myddo doesn't give an accurate picture of a toons gear and in most cases I fully disagree. If the caster above only had 200HP and no item with a blue slot or Quorforged docent at level 20 then i'd know part of why he had low HP.

It's like a puzzle that needs to be pieced together. Most of the time the pieces are there. Sometimes it's just not and you have to take a chance.

If a toon has a 16 con but you can see they don't have a con item equipped but instead have a Planar Gird equipped then you can assume they swapped out and didn't swap back before logging out.

If a toon has a 10 con at level 20 and they are wearing a health ring of open locks then you're darn skippy I'm gonna decline em, cuz no matter what gear they put on they're still not going to have enough HP to live through an orthon sneezing on them.

[SEMPER]

I'm quoting myself here, and I never said there was anything wrong with it. You're all trying to jump to conclusions, and the wrong one at that.

My only point to that statement, as it states, with that gear the caster would MOST LIKELY be missing toughness. Depending on what other gear they are wearing you could essentially judge that. Perhaps something with a blue slot, or a Quorforged Docent.

I was attempting to respond to someone saying that myddo doesn't give an accurate picture of a toons gear and in most cases I fully disagree. If the caster above only had 200HP and no item with a blue slot or Quorforged docent at level 20 then i'd know part of why he had low HP.

It's like a puzzle that needs to be pieced together. Most of the time the pieces are there. Sometimes it's just not and you have to take a chance.

If a toon has a 16 con but you can see they don't have a con item equipped but instead have a Planar Gird equipped then you can assume they swapped out and didn't swap back before logging out.

If a toon has a 10 con at level 20 and they are wearing a health ring of open locks then you're darn skippy I'm gonna decline em, cuz no matter what gear they put on they're still not going to have enough HP to live through an orthon sneezing on them.

Just curious but why would gear tell you that there missing toughness ?? besides the toughness bonus with minos helm or with a epic slot , it only gives you 20 hps , it doesn't unlock anything else so why does that tell you anything about there build ? besides they can't fit it in atm or don't know i guess , but the bottom line of this whole debate is your using it to screen them and imho that's just silly , try to just accept the first ones that hit the lfm and do it , you might get things done faster you might not but by the end of the quest or night lmao you willl know whether to group with them again or not

[Quikster]

I'm quoting myself here, and I never said there was anything wrong with it. You're all trying to jump to conclusions, and the wrong one at that.

My only point to that statement, as it states, with that gear the caster would MOST LIKELY be missing toughness. Depending on what other gear they are wearing you could essentially judge that. Perhaps something with a blue slot, or a Quorforged Docent.

I was attempting to respond to someone saying that myddo doesn't give an accurate picture of a toons gear and in most cases I fully disagree. If the caster above only had 200HP and no item with a blue slot or Quorforged docent at level 20 then i'd know part of why he had low HP.

It's like a puzzle that needs to be pieced together. Most of the time the pieces are there. Sometimes it's just not and you have to take a chance.

If a toon has a 16 con but you can see they don't have a con item equipped but instead have a Planar Gird equipped then you can assume they swapped out and didn't swap back before logging out.

If a toon has a 10 con at level 20 and they are wearing a health ring of open locks then you're darn skippy I'm gonna decline em, cuz no matter what gear they put on they're still not going to have enough HP to live through an orthon sneezing on them.

Sooooo, youre elitist

[Solmage]

And I would take him because i dont use myddo to screen, he would die, we would complete, everyone would be happy.

And we would continue reinforcing the pattern of noobs not needing to really give a !)(#^& about being nothing but a burden to a group, since after all they get the same amount of free turbine points from favour, the same loot, and the same exp if they die 10 x or not.

I refuse, when I can, to give completions to people who don't deserve them. The easiest is by screening before you accept someone. But I'm not above instructing the cleric to not res the individual and leaving them without end loot, which is particularly effective on flagging quests or quests such as Sorjek, at which point I do advise them they're better off releasing.

It gets tricky when that doesn't work, because then you have to evaluate if you abort the run to re-form, and mildly annoy yourself and your friends, or cave in and give another noob that insists to "run it on elite, need guide, and btw, I have no clue what I'm doing nor can I kill anything here" what they want, and annoy myself more.

In Short: Screening is easier, and less headaches. I'd have declined as well.