Sins Elite Elitism

[zwiebelring]

I ask this as neutrally as possible:

Is it "Elitist" to decline a level 20 Pew-Pew Ranger with 280 HP for a Sins Elite group?

I was neither the Ranger, nor the decliner.

So what's the consensus, Sarlona?

I am not playing on Sarlona, but I would say, you are the group leader and you decide what you want to have in your group or not.

I for my part do not see the point of dumping CON. CON is no dump stat!!! I would decline such people as well if I was unsure about a healer in group.

[MsEricka]

/popcorn

Not only did they have 280HP, but they are from a guild known for leaving their guild members in the dust and not helping any of them.

So yup, they got rejected. Could it be the players fault they're poorly built? Could it be the guild's fault they're poorly built? Could it be anyone else's that's ever partied with them?

Yes to all of the above. But I for one am not going to take a character at level 20 and teach them about CON and GFL and toughness etc etc etc. At 20 it's too late.

Perhaps if we were running favor in low level quests we could help them out, but when it's amrath elites I'm not going to hold someone's hand and say it's ok to be in a backpack and earn something you didn't do anything for.

[Aeolwind]

And I would take him because i dont use myddo to screen, he would die, we would complete, everyone would be happy.

This. Buddy of mine has a ranger in this HP range and hasn't had an issue yet. Yeah, it's low and he knows it & yes we give him **** about it. =P

[Hendrik]

I ask this as neutrally as possible:

Is it "Elitist" to decline a level 20 Pew-Pew Ranger with 280 HP for a Sins Elite group?

I was neither the Ranger, nor the decliner.

So what's the consensus, Sarlona?

Elitist to turn down a untrusted/un-named PUG with 'poor' stats for advertised Quest?

No.

I would say smart and quite considerate of your Healer.

[krud]

People put too much faith in numbers. A barbarian with 500 HP could be as likely to die as a 280HP ranger, if the player doesn't have the skills to run the toon right. I'm not saying take the ranger or not, just some food for thought is all.

The problem there is that the skills needed to play a low hp pew-pew (i.e. kiting to avoid damage) are negated by all the teleporting mobs and narrow corridors in Sins. Those low hp are really going to be a liability, even for someone who knows how to kite.

[Astraghal]

I can solo Sins Elite on my ranger

What kind of AC are you getting?

[andbr22]

Generally ranger can live with it...
But probably not in Sins elite where all monsters teleport and clave everyone around. BTW Sins is one of not many "AA Haeven" in game (lot of big monsters + small corridors vs. Many shoot + Improved precise shoot = Heaven (of course it it lot of agro generating and 280 is a bit too small buffer even with displacement)).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The problem there is that the skills needed to play a low hp pew-pew (i.e. kiting to avoid damage) are negated by all the teleporting mobs and narrow corridors in Sins. Those low hp are really going to be a liability, even for someone who knows how to kite.

That is not entirely true.


(to clarify, you just need more skills. And it also depends on the rest of the party.)




More: Sins does not have to be an endurance fest. There are ways to do it and take little damage. But few parties even attempt to mitigate the damage they take in that (or any other) quest.

But I agree that it would be rare to find a bow using low HP guy who would last long in there.....even on normal. The narrow corridors "do" limit your kiting ability. The teleporting mobs could all jump right to the guy who is standing so far behind that he is out of healer range, and decided to light up the whole army with his Manyshot.

I do agree that the most common thing you will see from a new guy trying to go ranged only in Sins will be for every Orthon to teleport right to him, trap him and kill him is less than a second.

But it doesn't have to be that way.





On another note: I think no one should be able to do a quest on elite that is above their lvl, that they have not done on hard yet.
Not to hurt the player, but to serve as a filter for group leaders. That way they know the guy was able to complete Hard, so he might be ready for Elite.

I would like to take anyone who wants to join into any quest. But I hate it when the guy has no idea what he is getting into and isn't ready.
It has little to do with HP. But typically the HP come as you get ready for greater challenges.

[Beethoven]

So overall, it would seem to be the consensus that anyone with 280 HP isn't really a worthwhile contribution to an Elite Amrath quest, aside from obvious comedic value?

Do not underestimate comedy value! In fact, I would consider it a very valuable contribution.

If you run Sins of Attrition in elite, you will more need a good healer and not a dumber who lets his companion dying (sorry that's easy) and a good leader.

So, what you saying is I (on my hjeals) end up in a Sins elite pug where the melees have less than 300hp, I am most likely to pick up their soulstones and blade barrier my way to the end puts me in the "dumber" category? All sad now.

[Seamonkeysix]

So, what you saying is I (on my hjeals) end up in a Sins elite pug where the melees have less than 300hp, I am most likely to pick up their soulstones and blade barrier my way to the end puts me in the "dumber" category? All sad now.

^^This. I actually prefer to run Sins solo, so I can use my SP on my WF FvS to BB, wings and finish. I have PUG'd it and told folks from the beginning that if they can contribute and self heal, then feel free to get agro. Otherwise, feel free to stand back and I will handle it. They still get their loot, and if they aren't XP capped, no death penalty. If they have low HP and die, I will pick up their soulstone, finish it, rez them and no hard feelings. The goal is to finish the quest. If your build or class doesn't jive with this particular quest on this particular setting, don't be offended...learn from it and figure out a way to get through it.

[Towrn]

What if caster got 500+ HP?
I know a lot of meeles with 400-450 HP max

My caster has 500+ HP. Just saying

[Delt]

The fact that someone took the time to myddo for something as easy as an elite Sins doesn't scream elitist. Then the fact that the ranger was denied, rather than accepted and berated during the quest also doesn't scream elitist.

I have therefore concluded, through undeniable scientific proof and fact, that the use of the term "elitist" in this thread was both improper and confusing.

Good day.

[MsEricka]

On another note: I think no one should be able to do a quest on elite that is above their lvl, that they have not done on hard yet.
Not to hurt the player, but to serve as a filter for group leaders. That way they know the guy was able to complete Hard, so he might be ready for Elite.

I constantly get a laugh when I see LFM's that say

Need elite opener, guide wanted

I avoid them like the plague.

[Entelech]

No. Just clueless. That's why you pull them into your run if you can. It'll be an educational experience for them. And hopefully they'll learn something from it. If they don't learn anything, then yes, they're idgits. But you shouldn't assume that everyone who doesn't know what they're doing is an idjit. If you assume that, you're the idjit.

To my way of thinking, you take 'clueless' into the quest on Normal or Hard, to have him die 20 times and maybe offer him some advice.

Or maybe just some quest other than Sins of Attrition.

Also, this fellow has somehow reached level 20 with this abominable build. Odds are good that you won't be the first person recommending that he take a Lesser Reincarnate to fix a few issues. And if he's ignored others before you, he's not likely to suddenly start listening NOW. In short, he's not a newb, he's a noob. Possibly even a n00b!!!111oneoneone.

So yes, if you feel like taking someone under your wing and don't mind that your efforts at helping this clueless fellow have at least a 50-50 chance of being wasted, then do your good deed for the day, and enjoy the warm fuzzies it gives you. Just go in with your eyes open, and remember that teaching a pig to sing wastes your time and annoys the pig.

If you just want to get the stupid quest completed for the favor, take someone else along who can realistically contribute.

And if you want to carry him through the quest for sadistic amusement value, I ask that you not do so. All you'll be accomplishing is to allow the player's self-delusion to continue, and teaching him that being a useless pile-on is the path to success. I run into enough of that already. We don't need any more of them around.

[Entelech]

So overall, it would seem to be the consensus that anyone with 280 HP isn't really a worthwhile contribution to an Elite Amrath quest, aside from obvious comedic value?

One thing I will say : this person was NOT unguilded. There was a guild tag associated with this individual, so someone's obviously let him think its cool to be at that level of HP.

Oh - he also has a ToD ring, btw. So it may or may not have had +2 ExCon slotted.

Also, 280 HP is forgivable in a pure Wizard or Sorcerer. Not great, but not beyond all reason, assuming that he's on his first life, may be a Drow, and doesn't have 20 Shroud completions yet.

On a Ranger? Ugh.

[ddobard1]

Please don't make judgements a priori, every Hero is welcome and if the Adventurers aren't strong enough to finish the quest: Patience and start again with a new Pug!
After all there are exotic Personages...

[TheDearLeader]

Wow. This thread has been getting a lot of love while I've been asleep.

So I'm starting to see some differing opinions here:
1. Using MyDDO to screen people is bad.

I've heard something like this before; why exactly? As long as its up-to-date (you can check that at the bottom right of the window), why not utilize a tool that is at least a snapshot of a toon's life?

2. Being even remotely picky when doing a level 21 quest is bad.

Eh? Okay, granted, this is a "soloable" quest. Of course, the fact that it being in the "Achievements" thread any time someone does so on Elite tells me that its at least worth *something*. Could we have short-manned it? Probably. But I like full parties, and so does the guy who had the Star. It seems irresponsible to accept anyone and everyone who applies for running Elites of the highest-level non-epic content pack in the game (and indeed, a content pack that has been described as "harder than some Epics").

3. If a player is that bad off they

A. Are "Pro", and know exactly what they're doing with such a substandard build,
B. Are in need of help, and somehow in 1.9 Million XP no one told them what they needed to hear. or
C. Have been told in that 1.9 Million XP that they are squishy/not contributing/hard to heal/general noobness.

4. Leaving this player out of the party was good because they were an unnecessary liability to what should be an open-and-shut quest with proper builds and tactics, and our healer thanks us.

I tend to agree with this; we didn't take the quest at a superfast pace, and I think we only say DA Green maybe twice? 1 Death by another PUGer, he ressed up and was right as rain after some rebuffs. Our Wizzy's Dancing Balls/Mass Hold Monsters were set up quickly, and at the point of combat, and between that and at least two different people utilizing Stunning Blow and Improved Trip, the Crowd was effectively "controlled". However, I think our method of doing things, which still involved taking a couple of hits every now and then, would have been contrary to the Ranger's contribution, as his chances of survival in such a situation seem... low. Especially when a failed save on a trap resulted in ~350 damage, more than his max HP amount.

So.. I suppose in saying this, I've made my opinion on the matter known. I wasn't the one who denied him, but I certainly don't blame the guy that did (if you notice, he's posted here in this thread twice now).

To those who say "I would have taken him":
1. I posted this right before we actually started the quest, 10:45 PM EST on Saturday. One might assume that the player is an adult in the North America region with standard play times.
2. The party was open simply as "Sins of Attrition" under the Quest Panel, and Elite as the detail notes.
3. I encourage each and every one of the two of you to hop onto Sarlona this evening, and pop up your own LFM for Sins Elite. Heck, run it 3-4 times with all sorts of new people.
4. You can have, at most, *1* other person in there you know and trust. The other 4 must be complete strangers to you. The other 4 must participate throughout the entirety of the quest.

And well.. we'll just see how things go, yes?

[NaturalHazard]

I'd take him for the entertainment value.

with 280 he should go ding a lot in elite, haha, but then again im sure hes use to it.

[Aeolwind]

with 280 he should go ding a lot in elite, haha, but then again im sure hes use to it.

Would sound like a cash register, or one of those annoying timer bells from a 1970's era game show.

[elujin]

just take him along and have fun .

and if you want to be eliteist about it a true elitist doesn't build a party he makes an audience of 5 people to watch him do the quest and conter dungeaon scaling.