Make an Effective AA

[Propane]

Hello-
Linked below is one of my AA builds – quite fun to play

Helps with buffing / tossing a heal scroll once and while, has enough HP to put the bow down and head in and start swinging…

I haven't updated it, ended up taking 1 Level of Fighter at end for the extra HP (swapped in an extra toughness feat and fighter toughness 1).

The link is below - should provide some good food for thought...

Enjoy!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=acetylene

[Talon_Moonshadow]

OK.....

I generally agree with yout assessment on AA clases and feats. I have not been able to make an AA that I liked without a lot of Rgr or Ftr lvls.
Anything else becomes a mediocre archer (and archery is already weak) and not very good at any other task IMO.

For me personally, I will stick with at least Rgr11 from now on. (Although my Ftr18/Rgr1/Wiz1 is definately a nice archer build)

But it's important to point out (yet again) that equipment and player skill(knowledge) are much more important than build in this game any day.

Which is a partial answer to your first question.
"Why should you take an AA in your raids?"

One, while archery may be kinda gimped, gear and smart players can do quiet a lot with one.

Fair play! So they will let you in their raid next time.

Also because you don't need super DPS to complete any raid that I have seen yet!
In fact, VoD and ToD are run best whith agro control, which means too much DPS from the wrong person screws things up. Far better to just keep things under control and go steady without racing to do the most DPS you can and risk agro going somewhere you don't want it to. (although I admit ranged users can cause problems here if they are not smart about it.)

If your Talking the Shroud, burst DPS from an AA works just fine.

Reaver? who cares?

DQ2? This is one quest where ranged guys shine IMO.

Von6? Gotta be smart, but on non-epic can't you still range the pillars?

Titan? Who cares?

Chrono? Hmm....personally I think burst DPS works just fine here too.

Edit: (forgot) Hound? I think burst DPS is fine here too. And kiting is sometimes useful as well. (although if things get that bad it seldom gets turned aound anyway)
My first Hound with an AA that had slayer arrows, when we we got the DM note that now was the time to strike, I hit Sprint Boost, ran around a corner, took one shot at Ziggy, roll a 20 and one shotted her for over 600pts of damage.


So.....why not take them?




There are many schools of thought about DDO and DPS and perfect groups...certain classes ...etc.

But I have done every quest in the game. All but five on elite, two of those on hard.
All but four of the available Epics (and I should mention that an AA works great if you do Party Crashers the right way)
Two manned 90% of the quests in the game.
Even done a healerless ToD raid.

On a mutt build low DPS char.

The game ain't that hard that you need to discriminate against anyone.

I am far more concerned about chars who cannot keep themselves alive then I am about their DPS.
I've seen more quests fail because no one brought a single healing pot with them, then I have because of a lack of DPS.

[Lornman]

(Quick Note: Burst DPS doesn't count a lick unless everything's dead at the end of the 20 seconds and once you hit Vale it rarely is)

My Tempest actually has the problem of there sometimes not being enough to kill on the screen at one time when I Manyshot.

I don't actually have a fully specced AA build yet but have an elven bard who is getting there. Archery outside of Manyshot is meh, and like already mentioned many times before, most AA's just don't know when to out swords and get it stuck in or are actually incapable of doing so because they dumped strength.

[Thrudh]

The key to being an AA is knowing when to put down the ****ing bow. The Burst damage of manyshot is nuts, I don't even have an AA anymore but both my tempests have lighting II bows and they absolutely rock on stunned/held mobs that happen to all be standing in a row. It happens a lot also.

A pure ranger AA who melees when manyshot is off timer will out-damage a Tempest all things being equal (thank you U5 nerfs!). Your melee DPS is only 10% lower than that of a tempest.

This.

Anyone who says that a good AA is a waste of a raid slot, doesn't know as much about this game as they think they do...

An AA ranger who puts down the bow between manyshot and uses TWF will still do decent damage...

And when manyshot is on, he will do more DPS than any other melee in the room, even against a single target... They are awesome for epics because they can hit 2-3 held mobs at the same time... When that is happening they are doing 300% of the DPS of any other melee...

But you have to know when to put down the freaking bow, and pull out some melee weapons.

[tjaysteno]

Your right, Deepwoods are better. But no, you are right. It does need a revamp to level it out slightly more, although I know a lot of people are against that.

Which confuses me. Why would you be against another viable playstyle? It's always either "ranged is fine, your build just sucks" or "if melee and ranged do the same DPS, no one will use range". To the former, no it's not. If it were you wouldn't have to switch away from your focus for reasonable DPS. To the latter, no one's saying equal DPS; there's a huge gap between them right now. I'd be happy with maybe even half the DPS.

And change Many Shot too. Scale back the damage per shot or pull back ranged attack speed, then make Many Shot passive. That solves the animation problem of not being able to fire quickly enough.

[tjaysteno]

My Tempest actually has the problem of there sometimes not being enough to kill on the screen at one time when I Manyshot.

I don't actually have a fully specced AA build yet but have an elven bard who is getting there. Archery outside of Manyshot is meh, and like already mentioned many times before, most AA's just don't know when to out swords and get it stuck in or are actually incapable of doing so because they dumped strength.

Which is another problem. All that squandered potential when you only are able to use 10 seconds of Many Shot, just to find another mob as it runs out.

[tjaysteno]

This.

Anyone who says that a good AA is a waste of a raid slot, doesn't know as much about this game as they think they do...

An AA ranger who puts down the bow between manyshot and uses TWF will still do decent damage...

And when manyshot is on, he will do more DPS than any other melee in the room, even against a single target... They are awesome for epics because they can hit 2-3 held mobs at the same time... When that is happening they are doing 300% of the DPS of any other melee...

But you have to know when to put down the freaking bow, and pull out some melee weapons.

But why is it that way? Why is it that archers are the only DPS class (and that's all they are) that has to switch away from their primary weapon in order to do reasonable damage?

[NexEverto]

Which confuses me. Why would you be against another viable playstyle? It's always either "ranged is fine, your build just sucks" or "if melee and ranged do the same DPS, no one will use range". To the former, no it's not. If it were you wouldn't have to switch away from your focus for reasonable DPS. To the latter, no one's saying equal DPS; there's a huge gap between them right now. I'd be happy with maybe even half the DPS.

And change Many Shot too. Scale back the damage per shot or pull back ranged attack speed, then make Many Shot passive. That solves the animation problem of not being able to fire quickly enough.

The first half of your message, honestly, confuses me. I'm not against Ranged combat in any form, my comment about Deepwood snipers was just touching on the fact that as of now, its an unloved and unfinished PrE. And I wish turbine would even up the DPS between Melee and Ranged slightly so I didn't have to 'prove' myself when I join groups on my 500 HP, 40 STR, 52 while using Manyshot, 34 DEX Arcane Archer.

What I wonder is why not make Manyshot like Power Attack? For every extra arrow you fire, you loose +2 to hit. That means you could be running around with 4 arrows, all the time, but loosing 8 to your hit bonus. For any well Built AA that wouldn't be a problem.

I feel life I've been encouraged to drag this thread off topic, so I apologize for that. Hopefully the conversations between a few of us will help you get an idea for your Build though.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Okay, good... So if I am the crazy one, I'm not crazy alone. Though I do get the feeling I was being trolled.

The first build could be an interesting one, AC is a 'meh' thing for me, but Half Orc could give some nice damage, only thing is, will it be better than an Elves Racial bonus to longbows? Though, as a switch between Ranged and Melee Build I think it'd probably work really nicely.

Second Build I'm not sure about, not having Slayer Arrows on an AA would make me cry, but, I guess I am a bit of a purist. Though, thats my only issue there. Zen Archery is also an interesting idea, never had the chance to personally play around with it, but I hear it can have some very nice results for Builds that don't require Dex for evasion, or, have monk levels so Bows can be used as Ki Weapons.

AC is situational. If you have a method to make enemies attack you however then AC can become quite good. For instance, if you have manyshot and/or intimidate.

The second build would have slayer arrows as it can take the AA PrE through being Helf. Zen Archery in this build isn't to use wisdom for attack bonus as high dex is needed for IPS. Zen Archery is to let you stay centered while using a bow and hence get +2 stacking dex and +2.5% doublestrike.

Edit: 12 ranger so you get IPS for free, still, high dex > high wisdom due to evasion.

[slimkj]

But why is it that way? Why is it that archers are the only DPS class (and that's all they are) that has to switch away from their primary weapon in order to do reasonable damage?

Indeed. The way the game is at the moment it does make it a lot simpler to switch to melee in off-mshot times. However, it would be nice if it wasn't the simplest playstyle choice and that sticking with a bow 100% of the time felt like you could always contribute.

(I know you can still put out decent dps by lining up mobs and working the environment to your advantage but that's not always possible and maintaining it over an evening's questing can be much more frustrating than just switching to melee. And this from someone who likes to play a monk like a piano virtuoso so isn't afraid of some effort to work a class.)

[Yajerman01]

well i have enjoyed my multiclass 12/6/2 halfling fighter/ranger/monk. His str damage alone with the bow Unwavering Ardency made him fun to switch up on bow. Having that said and coming from TWF melee class I have made a 18/2 Human Ranger/monk build that I am now going through the cycles of AA (currently level 13). I mostly TWF everything. I have decent AC, I am a str build and I designed this build to solo. In that regard, building him to solo allows me more range of motion in a group. AA is actually his secondary MO, but I will have it nonetheless.

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Monk \ 18 Ranger)
Hit Points: 337 (+185 = 522) (+20+40=582)
Spell Points: 498
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 19 +15 = 34 (+3=37)
Reflex: 19 +17 = 36 (+1=37)
Will: 13 +17 = 30 (+1=31)

Abilities Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 20)
Strength 26 +2+8=36 (+6+2+2+4+2=52)
Dexterity 20 +6 = 26 (+1+2+2 = 31)
Constitution 20 +8 = 28 (+2+2+2+4=36)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 18 +8= 26(+2+2=30)
Charisma 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20


Feat/Enhancement
Modified Skills
Skills (Level 20)
Balance 28
Concentration 29
Hide 21
Jump 31
Move Silently 28
Use Magic Device 11


Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I

Level 2 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I

Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I

Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II

Level 8 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer I

Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III

Level 10 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II

Level 11 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows

Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III

Level 13 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I

Level 14 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows

Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III

Level 16 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion IV

Level 17 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows

Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild III

Level 19 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV

Level 20 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows

I know im a double TR, but so far hes fun and that is what counts.

[smithtj3]

They dump str and go for the highest dex possible because they never want to miss. With improved precision, this accomplishes making everything in the hallway mad without actually killing any of it. With teleporting mobs, this usually turns into a quick pile on, population you.

Chai, you are one of the more reputable members of the AA constituent on the forums but I'm going to have to disagree with this point. Up until about a month ago I probably would have sided with you but a run through Sins of Attrition on elite with a solid group of TR'd melee builds (two fighters, a paladin, and a monk) and a bard solo healing off scrolls has changed my mind. On my dex based AA I led the team in kills with double the number of the second highest count without putting down my LitII bow.

I'm not suggesting that this definitively proves the validity of dex builds or bow dps, this just shows that given the right circumstances it is possible. If you put a bow ranger in a quest made up of nothing but narrow hallways, with scant healing which slows the team down enough that it takes about 2:20 to finish one hallway. . . a bow ranger, str or dex, is going to crush the competition 9 times out of 10. It was the perfect storm, and George Clooney gave me my end reward.

I didn't dump str though, I just set dex higher so I agree with you on the str not being a dump stat.

[smithtj3]

OK..... *snip*

/signed

**Comments below derived from PUG experience, IDK what you big time 24/7 guild players do**

It MIGHT seem more plausible to max out raid DPS if the majority of the people who PUG play DDO were actually after a challenge. . . and even then, at some point, the next step is to intentionally handicap the group. Players need to own up to the fact that what they're really after is the equivalent of fist fighting a 4 year old (In no hypothetical variation of this comparison is the 4 year old armed with a firearm or any sort of ninja weaponry). If I have to sleep walk through one more Reaver's Reach quest on casual or explain why we aren't running it on casual or reform after someone decided to just go in on casual, I may been driven to homicide. Does the shroud even have a difficulty other than normal? My experience has been, if you're looking to do some serious work in DDO, it matters exponentially more who is playing each character, not what that character is. An AA can roll deep with the best of them.

[Seamonkeysix]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...t=helves+angel