Make an Effective AA

[tjaysteno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h-27...eature=related

Once again I feel like the guys in this video, but for some reason here I am again. I want someone to convince me that AAs are anything but a waste of a raid slot. I'm still of the belief that the most effective AA builds are either pure Ranger or a 18/1/1 build (probably fighter/wiz/monk or fighter/wiz/rogue). Unfortunately, neither of these builds have enough DPS to justify them over melee (Quick Note: Burst DPS doesn't count a lick unless everything's dead at the end of the 20 seconds and once you hit Vale it rarely is), enough damage avoidance to justify them over an AC monk, or enough utility to choose them over...well anyone that can use a bow. Which unfortunately means AAs are used by only players who only play it for flavor.

I believe it's near impossible to make a toon that uses a bow that isn't squandering considerable potential to do so. And I believe one of the biggest reasons is because of the feat requirements.


- AA Prereqs -
WF: Ranged
PBS
MT (or something similar)

- Must Haves -
Many Shot
Rapid Shot [MS prereq]

- Should Haves -
Bow Strength (which requires Power Attack)
IC: Ranged
PS
IPS
Toughness (practically a must have for any toon)
Melee feats for use between Many Shot


So there we have it, 10 feats (before melee feats). Every single basic feat plus 3. Or you can skip the should haves and still have room for 2 class-related feats. So let's see where this leads us.

- DPS options -
Ranger - the most obvious choice for an AA. The only class that gives the option to use a race other than elf or half-elf. All the ranged feats AND all the TWF feats you need. Just enough room to squeeze in the other feats to have a pretty solid archer (on paper). The spells also give some depth and self-sufficiency, but in the end the DPS isn't sufficient and you'll spend most of your time either (A) kiting mobs waiting for Many Shot to recharge or (B) go into melee and give up the archer's best attribute; the ability to avoid damage.

Fighter - the second obvious choice. The abundance of feats allows the toon to have more DPS than a Ranger AA. The opportunity cost is self-heals and some important self-buffs like FOM, resists, and protects. With an 18ftr/1wiz/1mnk build you get a total of 19 feats to play with. I believe that gets you close to all you need, but in the end you still have to choose between melee and range as your primary mode of combat; you can't get all the weapon specs for both. The DPS here and HP is much higher here, but it's still lacking when compared to melee. Most combat happens at melee range and while it's good to have a plan for dealing with range, a better plan is a Tempest with a bow or a sorc with a ray spell than a fighter AA.

Rogue - Probably the highest ranged DPS you can get. If you could manage to get all the feats you needed. With only 7-9 feats (pure vs 18/1/1) to work with though, you're going to have to make cuts to ranged feats that a ranger or fighter wouldn't and nearly completely neglect melee.

Barb - See rogue

- Caster AAs -
Divine - A viable option, I'll admit it. But again, the feats get in the way. You only have room for 2-4 feats to increase your healing and survivability. Plus melee still does more damage and requires less feats to be effective. Use those feats to specialize in healing a bit more and you won't care about the extra damage you're taking from being up close and personal.

Sorc/wiz - I kind of don't see the point. Wizards get some more feats which makes it a bit easier to fit in the ranged ones, but your firewall or TOD should be your weapons. Or go WF and hop into melee if you wanna get your hands dirty.

Bard - More or less the same as sorc/wiz.

- The Others...for the sake of being thorough -
Pally - No real benefit I can see to a ranged pally.

Monk - Uncentered.





So as you can see, I don't see an convincing gameplay arguments to playing an AA. I've experienced how much fun they are, but that doesn't change the fact that they are outshined in nearly every category by some other class or build.

Is there something I'm missing? I really hope there is.

[Alabore]

Monk - Uncentered.

Zen archery feat?

[Healsavant]

I have what you would call an exploiter, 18/1/1 ranger,fighter,rogue. Drow non tr named Ratthlin on sarlona, yes he is AA, str build, his melee is equally as effective as his ranged. And to be honest, I'm rather disappointed in a Barb tr I'm.currently at 18 with, he is straight up hate tank, and my ranger hits as hard if not harder in melee than a class I thought should way outdamage a little drow. As my Barb has a LOT more str, and using min weapons shouldn't the Barb, even at 18 be doing a lot more damage? I'm talking maybe 10 base damage per swing, but ranger has fighter haste boost, giving him a lot more attacks in any given fight than my Barb. This also works with manyshot. I don't know what to tell you other than be creative, I didn't plan him out ahead, I literally kept changing him until I had him tweaked just where I was happy. My advice, roll one up, start with melee, when you get him around 18 start tweaking, don't follow anyone else's build, keep an open mind and put nothing off limits. Good luck and have fun with it.

[NexEverto]

I've got an AA, so I'm naturally bias, however, when an AA's Built right it can do a decent amount of damage (Without Manyshot going), and have a decent amount of Health. The only issue is, for an AA, is the second you pull out your bow your suddenly attacking half as slow, if not slower, than any Melee Build. Even after getting the 25% (Though I'm told its 12.5%) bonus from the Ranger Capstone, 10% bonus Ranged Alacrity bonus from the ToD set, and a 10% bonus from the Quiver of Alacrity/Black Dragonhide Armor (Which, all three stack, I've tested it myself, however I'm yet to be motivated enough to post it to the DDO Forums) you'll still end up attacking a lot slower than any melee. The issue for any well built AA isn't its damage, although not having a form of Power Attack can hurt, its not Build killing. But the simple fact that Ranged Alacrity must have evolved from a snail.

To have a half decent DPS AA, having a high Strength is a must, but at the same time you can't neglect Dexterity. Without Dex, you're going to be an AA who thinks DPS comes on a 20 roll. Unfortunately its one of those Builds you need to find a balance with, Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution, and for most people is probably best used as a second PrE, coupled with Bard, you'd probably have the most effective AA.

Sorry, that was probably a bit of a rant and a mess... I am half asleep, and piking an Abbot Raid, but I hope my personal experience can shed some insight, and explain what the real issue is with any Ranged Build. Now... I'm waiting for the arguments to start.

[Kaiserkreuz]

Fighter 20 Kensai Arcane Archer.

Need Past life: Sorcerer then get Arcane Prodigy feat which unlocks Arcane Archer enhancement for pure Fighters. Get Kensai enhancements for increasing damage done and Fighter Weapon Alacrity capstone enhancement gives 10% bonus to range attack speed. You just need 19 DEX for the range feats needed and buff up STR to increase Damage with bow strength feat.

[NexEverto]

Fighter 20 Kensai Arcane Archer.

Need Past life: Sorcerer then get Arcane Prodigy feat which unlocks Arcane Archer enhancement for pure Fighters. Get Kensai enhancements for increasing damage done and Fighter Weapon Alacrity capstone enhancement gives 10% bonus to range attack speed.

Pure fighters won't have a Blue Bar, so, you wont be able to Imbue arrows. Unless, they've changed it.

[Kaiserkreuz]

Past life sorcerer feat gives you the sp bar and Arcane Prodigy makes you able to use it to cast the 1d12 + 1d12 every 3 levels random element spell damage

Past Life: Sorcerer

You were a Sorcerer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself daydreaming of dragons. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Evocation spells and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Arcane Prodigy

You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest. (Activate this sorcerer ability to blast a target with a ray of combined elements, doing 1d12 damage of a random elemental type plus an additional 1d12 per three caster levels on impact. A successful Reflex save reduce the damage by half.)

Arcane Archer I
Requires One of: Bard Energy of Music I, Elven Arcanum I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Mental Toughness, "Past Life: Arcane Prodigy"

[NexEverto]

Past Life: Sorcerer

You were a Sorcerer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself daydreaming of dragons. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Evocation spells and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Lets just make sure you read this correctly, or I read this correctly...

You were a Sorcerer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself daydreaming of dragons. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Evocation spells and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Pure Fighters can't cast spells, can they?

[Kaiserkreuz]

Did you read the whole thing posted specially the requirement part of Arcane Archer. Please do read again.

[NexEverto]

Did you read the whole thing posted specially the requirement part of Arcane Archer. Please do read again.

I'm aware it can replace mental toughness, I'm either going to be adding a Sorc Past Life or a Barb Past Life to my AA, I'm undecided for now. However, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying a pure Fighter, Arcane Archer, wont have any Spell Points, meaning it won't be able to imbue its arrows. Having a Past Life Passive and Active Feat won't grant you a blue bar, but it will allow you to take the PrE. Without Spell Points, you wont be able to imbue yourself with Force, Acid, Fire, Terror or Slayer Arrows, and you'll loose your reason to be an AA.

I am tired, so if I'm missing something here, please point me in the right direction, however unless you mix in a class that has the ability to cast spells, you're AA PrE will be for the most part useless.

[Kaiserkreuz]

If you are having doubts use a character planner

[NexEverto]

If you are having doubts use a character planner

The character planner is not DDO, however, I've done that before, and it said the Build would have SP (125 if I remember right). At the same time however, when I put an Archmagi item on it using the gear section, its SP didn't increase at all. If you've got this Build yourself, I'd love to see it. I'm actually really curious to know if it is the biggest AA loophole in DDO, however, as far as the game mechanics go, it wont work.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Did you read the whole thing posted specially the requirement part of Arcane Archer. Please do read again.

It is 100% certain that you can't use Arcane Archer Slayer Arrows without at least 1 level of a class that grants blue bar, hence, no 20 fighter.

I've been throwing ideas of some ranged capable builds lately.

Idea 1: Half-orc 18 ranger / 1 fighter / 1 monk.
Half-orc: good melee and ranged damage
18 Ranger: Slayer Arrows.
1 fighter: Intimidate (can AC orthon tank for instance), Haste boost (when used with manyshot should balance damage)
1 monk: AC, zen archery, wind stance (2.5% double strike, +2 dexterity)
Summary: Good ranged and melee DPS, possibility to intim or hate tank if AC can be boosted enough

Idea 2: Half-elf 12 ranger / some combination of fighter, monk and rogue
Half-elf: Barbarian, Rogue or Paladin Dilettante maybe, +5 damage boost, healing amp, slayer arrows (maybe)
12 Ranger: tempest 2 (maybe), ranged and melee feats
7 rogue: UMD, lots of sneak attack damage, intimidate, trap skills, haste boost III
7 fighter: kensai I, HP, intimidate, haste boost III
1 monk: unarmed damage, wind stance, zen archery
Summary: Good DPS, good AC, very soloable.

I also really like the Helves Angel build.

[NexEverto]

It is 100% certain that you can't use Arcane Archer Slayer Arrows without at least 1 level of a class that grants blue bar, hence, no 20 fighter.

Okay, good... So if I am the crazy one, I'm not crazy alone. Though I do get the feeling I was being trolled.

The first build could be an interesting one, AC is a 'meh' thing for me, but Half Orc could give some nice damage, only thing is, will it be better than an Elves Racial bonus to longbows? Though, as a switch between Ranged and Melee Build I think it'd probably work really nicely.

Second Build I'm not sure about, not having Slayer Arrows on an AA would make me cry, but, I guess I am a bit of a purist. Though, thats my only issue there. Zen Archery is also an interesting idea, never had the chance to personally play around with it, but I hear it can have some very nice results for Builds that don't require Dex for evasion, or, have monk levels so Bows can be used as Ki Weapons.

[Carpone]

[I want someone to convince me that AAs are anything but a waste of a raid slot.

Until Turbine revamps ranged weapon combat, arcane archers a waste of a raid slot.

The most effective AA you can build right now is a character that can do something else while Manyshot refreshes, like heal. This 17 fvs/2 monk/1 wizard AA/healer is ok, but I wouldn't want a party full of them: http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/misd

[Shyver]

Took a minute to find it:

Unfortunately, you won't have any spell points to power your Arcane Archer abilities as a pure class fighter, even with Arcane Prodigy - like the Past Life, the spell points are only granted to those that actually possess a spell point pool.

The thought was that Arcane Prodigy is "Mental Toughness Plus", so if Mental Toughness was a valid prereq, it should be one too.

[NexEverto]

Until Turbine revamps ranged weapon combat, arcane archers a waste of a raid slot.

Your right, Deepwoods are better. But no, you are right. It does need a revamp to level it out slightly more, although I know a lot of people are against that.

Took a minute to find it:

It took me over an hour to not find it, so, you did a lot better than me. Mind PMing me the link? I lost it some time ago after my last Pure Fighter AA debate.

[grodon9999]

The key to being an AA is knowing when to put down the ****ing bow. The Burst damage of manyshot is nuts, I don't even have an AA anymore but both my tempests have lighting II bows and they absolutely rock on stunned/held mobs that happen to all be standing in a row. It happens a lot also.

A pure ranger AA who melees when manyshot is off timer will out-damage a Tempest all things being equal (thank you U5 nerfs!). Your melee DPS is only 10% lower than that of a tempest.

The Helves Angel is good, a melee Kensai and AA on the same build.

I don't mind AAs in my groups except if they are retards and take aggro on a 350 HP squishy elf. Then you just let natural selection take it's course and stop hjealing them.

[slimkj]

I found pure ranger AA incredibly dull in off-mshot times, and combos around 12rgr/___ similarly unsatisfying.

Given my love for monks, the 12mnk/6rgr/2___ combo that a lot of people are using seemed a natural fit, I've made a variant and I have to say I'm liking it a lot. It's got exactly the kind of off-mshot keyboard mashing I was after, lovely fists attack speed with haste boost icing, and the run speed is just perfect for kiting if you fancy a bit of solo action.

I'd recommend it.

[Chai]

(Quick Note: Burst DPS doesn't count a lick unless everything's dead at the end of the 20 seconds and once you hit Vale it rarely is)

Wait wait....stop the train right there.

What in the vale takes 20 seconds to kill from time of engagement?

What trash mobs in amrath takes 20 seconds to kill? Inspired Quarter?

The arcane archers who are boring to play and detrimental to groups are the ones that do not put down the bow and use melee ever. They dump str and go for the highest dex possible because they never want to miss. With improved precision, this accomplishes making everything in the hallway mad without actually killing any of it. With teleporting mobs, this usually turns into a quick pile on, population you.