Rogue Acro III and Mech III

[Wraithkin]

This is rehashing some stuff that's been covered in other threads, ideas that I have brought up and others have brought up. Just thought I float them in the appropriate forum.

Rogue Acrobat III

Yada yada requirements
Yada yada obligatory skill increases that seem to go with every rogue prestige.
Yada yada Competency speed increase to attack speed.

Double Weapon - (activated) A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with
two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two
weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

This would bring the Rogue Acrobat damage in line with an assassins when conditions are met. They would be striking faster than any other two weapon fighter or two hand fighter but would trade off number of attacks in two hand fighting mode and to hit penalty in Double Weapon mode. I was thinking it would be activated like the monk feather fall ability, power attack or rogue threat reduction.


Mechanic III

Yada yada requirements
Yada yada obligatory skill increases that seem to go with every rogue prestige.

Bolt Creation - By using the mechanics knowledge of traps and ranged combat, the rogue is able to
create bolts that deal elemental damage or magical effects.

Ranged sneak attack - The rogue has learned how to effectively deal precise damage from range and
has increased the range of sneak attack damage to X.

This allows the mechanic to continue in their role of crafting goodies, but would create more outlets for the mechanic to use these devices instead of the delaying the party. Bolts that could deal 10d6 elemental damage or low level magic effects like web or glitter dust. The ranged sneak attack could either double the existing range of ranged sneak attacks to 60 ft or could just remove the range limit for sneak attacks, again bringing this prestige enhancement in line with the assassin PRE.

I don't think either of these is a game breaker, nor would either overly empower either prestige enhancement. Obviously, game testing would be required to see if these could be exploited but I think they offer alternatives to the existing ruling rogue prestige enhancement of assassin.

Thoughts?

[elujin]

intresting

but woudn't we need twf ? and thf for anything pre 19 lvls it would be nice if its just a dubble weapons for sneak attacks

[DethTrip]

I have a few ideas for Acro III. Any combination of one or more of these.

1. Another 10% attack speed. That actually was the full 10%.
2. Double strike 10%.
3. Stunning blow +10. Increase stunning blow DC while still using a good staff.
4. Increased run speed.
5. Trip +10. Increase trip DC while still using a good staff.

If I think of more I will edit this later. Just a few I came up with real fast before heading home from work.

[Wraithkin]

intresting

but woudn't we need twf ? and thf for anything pre 19 lvls it would be nice if its just a dubble weapons for sneak attacks

The double weapon concept was originally introduced in Oriental Adventures I want to say, it's been a while since I've used those books. In this implementation, I'd think you'd program it so that you'd effectively have the 80% chance to hit with your off hand when using the staff as a double weapon.

I didn't have problems leveling a big stick build up to level 18, it actually seemed easier and faster, but after I capped him he was lackluster next to my assassin. This would simply be a way to bring the Thief-Acrobat in line with the assassin in end game content.

The mechanic is actually essentially two weapons with the same base damage and crit profile as the quarterstaff being wielded. This would mean that weapons like Force Burst Rahl's Might, Nat Gann's Staff and Dreamspitter would be very attractive weapons, as would greensteel crafted weapons.

[Wraithkin]

I have a few ideas for Acro III. Any combination of one or more of these.

1. Another 10% attack speed. That actually was the full 10%.
2. Double strike 10%.
3. Stunning blow +10. Increase stunning blow DC while still using a good staff.
4. Increased run speed.
5. Trip +10. Increase trip DC while still using a good staff.

If I think of more I will edit this later. Just a few I came up with real fast before heading home from work.

The attack speed was part of my suggestion for Thief-Acrobat III. Double strike wouldn't be need in a Double Weapon configuration due to the attack speed increase in conjunction with what is essentially wielding two weapons. I did forget to include run speed since that has been given in the last two levels of the prestige enhancement. I think increasing the DC to trips and stunning blow would imbalance this build. I'm pretty sure no class or prestige currently gets that, though if I'm wrong I'll be corrected shortly I'm sure. Further, those maneuvers haven't been previously introduced to this build as part of the base concept. To include them now would be a little out of character for the build.

[BlackSteel]

how about for acrobat 3 you get to apply sneak attacks to glancing blows.

[Wraithkin]

how about for acrobat 3 you get to apply sneak attacks to glancing blows.

That is a good idea as well, though it would only work in they either kept the build as a two-hand fighting build or added that in to the base code something like -

Double Weapon - (activated) A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with
two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two
weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. When used as a two-handed
weapon, quarterstaff's add sneak attack to glancing blows instead.

[Kaeldur]

The attack speed was part of my suggestion for Thief-Acrobat III. Double strike wouldn't be need in a Double Weapon configuration due to the attack speed increase in conjunction with what is essentially wielding two weapons. I did forget to include run speed since that has been given in the last two levels of the prestige enhancement. I think increasing the DC to trips and stunning blow would imbalance this build. I'm pretty sure no class or prestige currently gets that, though if I'm wrong I'll be corrected shortly I'm sure. Further, those maneuvers haven't been previously introduced to this build as part of the base concept. To include them now would be a little out of character for the build.

Well I like the double weapon idea (I had actually suggested that previously, not sure if that's where you got it from).

As to + DC to Trip/Stunning Blow, Kensai get it. But they get +1 per tier, if I'm not mistaken. +10 would be too overpowered in my opinion, +1 or even +2 is feasible.

[Calebro]

I have a few ideas for Acro III. Any combination of one or more of these.

1. Another 10% attack speed. That actually was the full 10%.
2. Double strike 10%.
3. Stunning blow +10. Increase stunning blow DC while still using a good staff.
4. Increased run speed.
5. Trip +10. Increase trip DC while still using a good staff.

If I think of more I will edit this later. Just a few I came up with real fast before heading home from work.

Here we go again with the crazy OP suggestions from you for PrEs.

1. They already have alacrity bonuses, from Acro or Monk levels or both. The original idea as presented already doubles their attack speed on top of those. Adding even more is too much.
2. They already get this from Opportunist and/or Monk levels as well, creating the same problem. Even if tey didn't, 10% is too much.
3. Sure, just give them a +10 for free when fighters have to spend a 10 AP on a measly +4 in comparison. No good.
4. No comment
5. See #3

[Wraithkin]

Here we go again with the crazy OP suggestions from you for PrEs.

1. They already have alacrity bonuses, from Acro or Monk levels or both. The original idea as presented already doubles their attack speed on top of those. Adding even more is too much.
2. They already get this from Opportunist and/or Monk levels as well, creating the same problem. Even if tey didn't, 10% is too much.
3. Sure, just give them a +10 for free when fighters have to spend a 10 AP on a measly +4 in comparison. No good.
4. No comment
5. See #3

Thanks for keeping this honest. I'm not looking to over power this. I'm trying to present real suggestions that are balanced in implementation. Rogues are doing fine as they are right now, this would just be polishing off two prestige enhancements that need their third tier.

Well I like the double weapon idea (I had actually suggested that previously, not sure if that's where you got it from).


As to + DC to Trip/Stunning Blow, Kensai get it. But they get +1 per tier, if I'm not mistaken. +10 would be too overpowered in my opinion, +1 or even +2 is feasible.

I don't believe I did, though since I troll these forums at work, I easily could have read it. I still play sit down pen and paper and this came up on a monk character. Again, thanks for keeping this honest. I didn't realize Kensai got that bonus as I'm a rogue player almost exclusively.

[Alavatar]

For the Double-Weapon benefit for Quarterstaves, I would recommend taking the tech from Monk Handwraps and apply it to the Acrobat III when equipped with a Quarterstaff and put it on a toggle (like, as noted, the Monk Feather Fall ability).

The acrobat would still need to invest in TWF (i.e. "DEX as a dump stat" acrobats wouldn't get an automatic +80% off-hand strike chance).

Personally, I think this benefit should actually happen at L12 with the alacrity bonus or even in lieu of the alacrity bonus.

[elujin]

how about for acrobat 3 you get to apply sneak attacks to glancing blows.

this and some stunning dc and trip dc would be nice

[Wraithkin]

For the Double-Weapon benefit for Quarterstaves, I would recommend taking the tech from Monk Handwraps and apply it to the Acrobat III when equipped with a Quarterstaff and put it on a toggle (like, as noted, the Monk Feather Fall ability).

The acrobat would still need to invest in TWF (i.e. "DEX as a dump stat" acrobats wouldn't get an automatic +80% off-hand strike chance).

Personally, I think this benefit should actually happen at L12 with the alacrity bonus or even in lieu of the alacrity bonus.

These are good ideas that I'm sure play test would work out, whether it's re-balancing the prestige enhancement to change when benefits are given or making sure that this doesn't break the intended leveling progression. I'm sure the developers can address if they want to make the player take the TWF for off hand strikes, even without any feats the player would have a 20% to generate off hand strikes which would be an improvement depending on the gains from power attack.

[Lithic]

For acrobat 3 I'd just give it +2 crit range on staves (before Imp. Crit so you need this feat) to make the staff comparable to the rapier (Instead of any double weapon stuff). With this change, at lvl 18+ a rogue can go either assasin or acrobat with much closer DPS profiles. The assasin will still be significantly ahead with its vorpal strike and +3d6 sneak damage and 2wf, but the acrobat would no longer be so far behind as to be a joke PrE that only NPCs take.

[Wraithkin]

For acrobat 3 I'd just give it +2 crit range on staves (before Imp. Crit so you need this feat) to make the staff comparable to the rapier (Instead of any double weapon stuff). With this change, at lvl 18+ a rogue can go either assasin or acrobat with much closer DPS profiles. The assasin will still be significantly ahead with its vorpal strike and +3d6 sneak damage and 2wf, but the acrobat would no longer be so far behind as to be a joke PrE that only NPCs take.

*drool* Crit 18-20x3 with Imp Crit Bludge for a crit range of 15-20x3 on the Force Burst Rahl's Might.


... I'll be in mah bunk.



I guess yours is a lot easier to code, I just like the flavor of Double Weapons, plus it would offer other abilities they could offer to other classes by coding it in.

[WangoFett]

how about...

Rogue Acrobat III:
* Additional +10% competence bonus to attack speed with staves (for a total +30% bonus), and a +1 bonus to critical hit range with staves.
* Additional +10% bonus to movement rate.
* Long-jump:
Consume a use of rogue skill boost and be thrust forward a short distance like the monk ability Abundant Step.
* Balancing Aura:
You are better able to aid your allies in combat. Nearby allies gain a +2 dodge bonus to reflex saves and armor class, and automatically succeed their next balance check if tripped or knocked down.
* Supreme Uncanny Dodge (replaces the improved uncanny dodge active ability):
The dodge bonus to AC and reflex saves increases to +8.
* Your haste boost uses regenerate at the rate of 1 every two minutes.



Rogue Mechanic III:
* Grants an additional +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Search and Spot skills.
You have become so adept at disabling traps and opening locks that it now takes you half the time to use these skills.
* Traps you set have further improved save DC's.
* Immobilize Construct:
You may attempt to stun a construct with a melee sneak attack. If the attack roll is successful, the construct must make
a fortitude save (DC = 10 + your rogue level + Intelligence modifier) or be stunned and suffer a -25%? penalty to fortification
for 6 seconds. This ability has a cooldown of 6 seconds.
* Improved Repair Aura:
Nearby allied constructs become easier to repair and gain a +25% bonus to hit points regained by repair effects.
Also, all nearby allies gain a bonus to the chance to negate item wear (+15%?)
* You also gain 3 points of additional energy resistance against all elements that stacks with the bonus from Mechanic II.
* Improved Adamantine Companion: (AP Cost 2, requires Adamantine Companion and Mechanic III)
A bigger and tougher adamantine defender. For gimpy flavor builds.



Create bolts may not mix well with Arcane archer.

[Wraithkin]

how about...

Rogue Acrobat III:
* Additional +10% competence bonus to attack speed with staves (for a total +30% bonus), and a +1 bonus to critical hit range with staves.
* Additional +10% bonus to movement rate.
* Long-jump:
Consume a use of rogue skill boost and be thrust forward a short distance like the monk ability Abundant Step.
* Balancing Aura:
You are better able to aid your allies in combat. Nearby allies gain a +2 dodge bonus to reflex saves and armor class, and automatically succeed their next balance check if tripped or knocked down.
* Supreme Uncanny Dodge (replaces the improved uncanny dodge active ability):
The dodge bonus to AC and reflex saves increases to +8.
* Your haste boost uses regenerate at the rate of 1 every two minutes.



Rogue Mechanic III:
* Grants an additional +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Search and Spot skills.
You have become so adept at disabling traps and opening locks that it now takes you half the time to use these skills.
* Traps you set have further improved save DC's.
* Immobilize Construct:
You may attempt to stun a construct with a melee sneak attack. If the attack roll is successful, the construct must make
a fortitude save (DC = 10 + your rogue level + Intelligence modifier) or be stunned and suffer a -25%? penalty to fortification
for 6 seconds. This ability has a cooldown of 6 seconds.
* Improved Repair Aura:
Nearby allied constructs become easier to repair and gain a +25% bonus to hit points regained by repair effects.
Also, all nearby allies gain a bonus to the chance to negate item wear (+15%?)
* You also gain 3 points of additional energy resistance against all elements that stacks with the bonus from Mechanic II.
* Improved Adamantine Companion: (AP Cost 2, requires Adamantine Companion and Mechanic III)
A bigger and tougher adamantine defender. For gimpy flavor builds.



Create bolts may not mix well with Arcane archer.

My problem with auras and the like is those are technically super natural skills (su) and the rogue class doesn't really have any basis to have a super natural skill.

If uncanny dodge were used more seriously, I'd say that a Supreme Uncanny Dodge would be nice, but as it is, you don't generally need to use it except in extreme circumstance that you really shouldn't be stepping into anyway. The AC increase is negligible, the saving throw is best in a limited number of situations. I personally feel that regenerating haste boosts would take away from the mechanic since it isn't a smite, it's a boost. It seems like it has a strong potential to be unbalancing. Finally, homogenization is what drove me away from other games. If you want something like abundant step or wings, go favored soul or monk. There are already enough systems in place that players can build to and abuse for quick completions or bypassing puzzles. Admittedly, that last point is completely personal preference.

I've already covered the aura aspect, I do like the half the time for searching, disabling and opening lock. Saving time is to everyone's benefit, though most end game traps people seem to avoid whenever possible, even if they have a rogue in party capable. DC's and skill points are pretty much a given. Though your concept for immobilize construct isn't bad, having a character designed to be ranged and then telling them they have to move into melee to use prestige enhancements is kind of... limiting. I'd rather them fix smite construct and make it ranged, then go from there. I personally think the bolt crafting and ranged sneak will do more to actually fix the prestige enhancement. Most people emphasize damage in every regard, while yours will allow for damage, it's severely limited in usage scenarios, more so than sneak attack itself. Stacked energy resistance would be nice, it really always is welcome. With the companion, as long as it stays a AP expenditure, I'm all for it.

Bolts and Arcane Archers I believe are independent of one another. You get some ranged benifit out of arcane archer but many shot and the arrow clickies don't work in crossbows.

Some of this is obviously personal preference, not saying it's not a good idea or suggesting against them, just some of what I'd like and refining input.

[WangoFett]

@Wraithkin

I see the acrobat aura being explained as a competence effect that reflects the acrobat's ability to help nearby allies stay on their feet and dodge attacks in combat through helping hand-ups and helpful nudges (just think Jackie Chan) rather than being a supernatural effect (needs a better name than 'something aura').

As to the long jump ability, I see spreading class specific skills a bit more beneficially increases the flexibility of the classes.
There are still 7 classes that do have access to this ability at all and it fits the acrobat theme of increased mobility.

For mechanic: Perhaps the mechanic should fill more of a tactical role than a DPS role. I like the idea of giving the mechanic the ability to create CC effects such as web, glitterdust, fogs. But does this clobber on the Sorc/Wizard role too much?
Also, Mechanics get a token repair construct ability at tier II, perhaps this should become significant at tier III.

[Calebro]

As to the long jump ability, I see spreading class specific skills a bit more beneficially increases the flexibility of the classes.

* Long-jump:
Consume a use of rogue skill boost and be thrust forward a short distance like the monk ability Abundant Step.

There are still 7 classes that do have access to this ability at all and it fits the acrobat theme of increased mobility.

Abundant Step is a Dimension Door once/day in PnP. They simply changed it for DDO.
Shadow Pounce would be the rogueish equivalent, and it was only granted to PrCs that don't exist here. The closest thing we have would be Assassin, but certainly not Acrobat, although with the different mechanics of it here I do understand your point about the flavor. But that's only because of the altered mechanics.
The Favored Soul's Leap of Faith was actually a pair of wings that the FvS grew. It wasn't at all like it is here. Completely different.

And those would be the two that have that ability. Monks and FvSs. So who are the other 5?

[WangoFett]

Woops, I meant to say there are still 7 others that _don't_ not _do_, and then I can't count as well so it would be 8.


And also since it is powered by a finite resource (skill boosts) rather than ki or spell points, it is not as good as the monk or favored soul abilities.