TWF Barb Viable?

[Anthios888]

the OP WANTS to play a 2wf Barb and is worried about being gimped - I was just showing him that they are absolutely fine. If 2wf was so gimped to 2hf several wouldnt even be on the list . . .Take it down a tone not everythings addressed at you.

+1 EXACTLY what I was trying to remind us of earlier. The original poster prefers two weapon fighting for his own reasons. Preference is generally the first ingredient of a good play experience:

So I'd like to restart/reroll a barb... So I'm curious, how many of you have TWF Barbs and how do they do? ... Anyone running a TWF barb in current endgame (Elite Amrath/Epic) content with huge success ?

The fact that it's still quite in contention which is the min/max "best" is probably a good sign that your toon is going to be just fine.

Last time I checked whoever goes home with the runner up prize on the theoretical DPS chart is still generally #1 DPS in their party ... whether he is two weapon fighting or two handed! =)

P.S. - And the runner up ain't 2wf ! *duck*

[NaturalHazard]

It's hard to recommend twf for barbs for several reasons:

Lower DPS. Proven by number math and ingame results thru videos. (Check out my DPS challenge which shows 100% fair results (completely equal chars) comparing a 100% fort and mostly fair -- not 100% equal chars as the 100% fort comparison, but both are very well geared with +4 str tomes) 0% fort target, where twf is quite a bit behind on each.

Twice the difficulty in weapon acquisition. You need twice the shroud ingredients and twice the epic crafting materials to make your gear.. It's quite a grind.

Less range while attacking. Barbs are a very mobile class and imo rely heavily on there speed and movement to reduce damage taken and increase damage dealt to enemies.. TWF can do well in this, but has slighty worse range on some attack animations.

No double strike chances like ranger/ftrs means relying on proc weapons like vorpals is not a great idea. Since TWF is better at vorpaling, thats sometimes a fair method of killing your enemies, but barbs are the worst at vorpaling of any melee class, and best at dps.. So THF tends to be the way to go.

That said, twf is still viable and can be fun to play. I play my lvl20 twf barb frequently, if only on raids... Being all other gear i go for tends to be BTA and i can just give him it when he wants it.

say though you have already ground out one handed greensteel weapons and you want to do a barberian life, would it be worth it to go twf?

[Alex301]

TWF barbs are viable, but going 20 barb is not ideal. 2 fighter gives you 2 extra feats and haste boosts which is far better than the barbarian capstone. If you want maximum potential dps then look at consumer's barbarian build.

If you're going by these dps test then it is important you understand how different classes work and what conditions suit them before you try to infer anything from them. According to the current league table though, the top spot for dps actually belongs to 12monk / 6fighter / 2paladin, but i doubt i'll see many people rolling up one of these.

[Cold_Stele]

eSOS > 2 Lit II's > 1 Lit II

Last time I checked the devs still weren't handing out eSOS automatically to everyone who caps, so 2 Lit II's are definitely viable, especially if you plan on TR'ing at any point.

[Shade]

Honestly im not interested in ur pure dwarf 2wf. 2wf are better splashed with 2 fighter IMO. You call it substantially behind - yet its the one target it will be substantially behind on - 100% fort with unbypasseable dr.

Why is this a bad target for TWF?
Unbypassable DR hurts both THF and TWF almost equally.

TWF has a poorer crit range then THF at the max lvls (esos: 15-20/x3 vs khop: 17-20/x3) thus fort hurts both a lot too. Not sure you thought that one out correctly either.

Really not sure what your getitng at. THF leads the 0% fort test as you can see also. Sure my dwarf twf didn't do very well - he's not my best geared character, but hey it was my first attempt at doing that test so I wasn't 100% prepaerd and so i forget to re-frenzy, sue me.. Or better yet, avoid the personal atacks and do your own video that shows TWF does great on him. I will redo the twf one at some point and try to improve it, but not because of your insults, because I want to.

Far as the 2 ftr lvls go.. um.. Yea for a very short burst duraiton, the haste boost 1 may be VERY VERY slightly ahead of using say dmg boost IV instead (recently figurd out how to activate it as same time as frenzy, so its great to use - check out my newly done WF THF sobrien video for demonstration). But not enough to make any big difference, and the loss of the capstone/mighty rage probably evens it out. Sure the ftr lvls may be nice to pick up khopesh feat or other stuff, but they'd have no real impact on dps on my particular character.

PS: I'd edit out the childish personal attacks out of your post, as the mods will hand you infraction for them. They really dont bother me, and I wont report ya for it since I believe overall your a good contributer to the forum.. but keep that in mind your breaking the forum rules.

[grodon9999]

Last time I checked the devs still weren't handing out eSOS automatically to everyone who caps . . .

That'll be in the next event!

[blackdoguk]

recently figurd out how to activate it as same time as frenzy, so its great to use - check out my newly done WF THF sobrien video for demonstration

Watched the video a few times (which is a big ask seeing as I must have killed that guy ~130 times on my way to the gloves scroll and have remitting dreams about outings to the seaside with the friendly 69000 hp ginger softy. ) Still couldn't work out how you were activating frenzy and damage boost in quick succession - it always bothers me when swinging at shroud portals or whatever that my salivating power house stops to do absolutely nothing for a few seconds then decides to go back to tearing things a new [insert appendage here.] Could you share your technique? Problem would be resolved if turbine let us switch frenzy/death frenzy on and off like power attack

[Chai]

According to the current league table though, the top spot for dps actually belongs to 12monk / 6fighter / 2paladin, but i doubt i'll see many people rolling up one of these.

I would love to see this in action outperforming a max str eSOS toon. The vacuum calculators like to put monk builds far down on their totem poles for DPS, completely ignoring the fact that the shroud speed records were set by parties loaded with dark monks.

[Chai]

eSOS > 2 Lit II's > 1 Lit II

Last time I checked the devs still weren't handing out eSOS automatically to everyone who caps, so 2 Lit II's are definitely viable, especially if you plan on TR'ing at any point.

Those will be in the next crafting event. It will be like Voltron where you can put two Lit2 weapons together, and form blazing sword to create the eSOS.

[Anthios888]

The vacuum calculators like to put monk builds far down on their totem poles for DPS, completely ignoring the fact that the shroud speed records were set by parties loaded with dark monks.

This is totally true. It may be slightly off topic, but we are on the subject of DPS calculations. I really love the value of dps calculators. I can take a build and decide whether certain crafting choices are worth it... I can decide whether a particular level split I am considering is actually a dps gain or loss ... I can choose what weapons I want to use. It gives a standard place to make some comparisons. Every time some new thing comes out and everyone on the boards is like, "OMG must re-spec to New Thing!" I can take a few minutes and figure it out. It has saved me from many flavor-of-the-month decisions that would have otherwise turned out stupid (like re-speccing for 2HF as many did when update 5 came out).

So, DPS calculators are helpful. ESPECIALLY if you have the foresight to combine what you see with what you know you will enjoy to improve your play experience in a way custom to your own habits. Every race and every class can achieve "that point" where they are a huge dps contributor. Fighting over what can amount to 10 DPS is kind of silly when taken in a world where every class has a bunch of other factors that make it more fun or more situational.

But when it comes to my monk, there are so many "fudge" variables that the DPS can swing by 30-40% or more! You are dealing with many types of elemental damage, many ki strikes and two or three hotbars of handwraps. And void IV? and unbalancing strike? and touch of despair? Factoring in immunities, fortification, and different boss profiles makes an even more dramatic difference than with other classes where you can generally do an apples-to-apples mineral II comparison. You really have to play a character a LOT, and be intimately familiar with the builds of those around you, to get a true sense of where you stand in the end. And after all of that, how do I account for my own experience that 6 wisdom means stuff dies more reliably in nearly all content than 6 strength? How do you account for the run up to the boss being much quicker, even if I am hitting for slightly smaller numbers on the boss? The list of "fudge" goes on.

So, I get my monk to "that point" where I know my DPS is very strong and I am working on the goals I am working on. I decide whether I want Abishai or Claw, or Knost's or Belt of the Mroranon. Or whatever.

And then I close the calculator, and go play the game for a change.

[Alex301]

I would love to see this in action outperforming a max str eSOS toon. The vacuum calculators like to put monk builds far down on their totem poles for DPS, completely ignoring the fact that the shroud speed records were set by parties loaded with dark monks.

Acutally, you can DPS challenge thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873) and more specifically Buffybot's attempt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61dReGzcYsA&hd=1)


The point i was trying to make is that people are referring to these times as definitive proof of the differences in DPS between builds, yet if people really believed that then everyone would be a monk. While these tests do give a reasonably accurate measure of DPS against portals, this is hardly representative of the majority of enemies in the game and trying to generalise the results to anything else will be difficult. In short there is no top dps build per se, as they all work in different ways with different strengths and weaknesses. For example, I notice there are no rogues in the portal test, but they undoubtable have the highest potential dps.

It is important that we do not over generalise and make sweeping statements about classes, but instead understand that the dps we achieve is largely situational, e.g. how many enemies are we fighting, what fort and resistances do they have etc. While most players will know this to some extent, i hope that newer and less knowledgeable players understand that any numbers or statements given need to be placed in context to really give an accurate image.

[Chai]

Acutally, you can DPS challenge thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873) and more specifically Buffybot's attempt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61dReGzcYsA&hd=1)


The point i was trying to make is that people are referring to these times as definitive proof of the differences in DPS between builds, yet if people really believed that then everyone would be a monk. While these tests do give a reasonably accurate measure of DPS against portals, this is hardly representative of the majority of enemies in the game and trying to generalise the results to anything else will be difficult. In short there is no top dps build per se, as they all work in different ways with different strengths and weaknesses. For example, I notice there are no rogues in the portal test, but they undoubtable have the highest potential dps.

I dont see anyone talking about definitive proof their build owns everyone else. What I do see is a challenge that equates to more than just build, as it also has to do with player skill, gear, timing, etc.

It is important that we do not over generalise and make sweeping statements about classes, but instead understand that the dps we achieve is largely situational, e.g. how many enemies are we fighting, what fort and resistances do they have etc. While most players will know this to some extent, i hope that newer and less knowledgeable players understand that any numbers or statements given need to be placed in context to really give an accurate image.

Exactly. When I banter this "D&D is a situational game" stuff in DPS discussions I get mass trolled by spreadsheet wavers who prefer to assume away 90% of all variables as being equal in order to make their proclamation that their build is superior. I prefer application results (videos, actually playing the game, etc) because it makes more sense to me that if I want to see how something performs in DDO, I play it in DDO, or someone else plays it in DDO and then shows me their video. If you showed me a race car with a suped up engine and handed me the blueprints and showed me through math calcs that it can get to 250 MPH, thats all fine and dandy. I would then toss you the keys, a crash helmet, and grab my radar gun, and when you fly past me, you need to be doing 250+MPH. Throw on a fresh pair of pantys and lets get this right.

Alot of questions remain unanswered through calculations because there indeed ARE too many variables. How come a bunch of dark monks were able to RoflPwn® all other Shroud speed run times when they are way down on the list as far as "calculated in a vacuum" DPS is concerned?

As far as barbarians are concerned, why wouldnt either style be viable? Seems like every time this question is asked, the old max DPS discussion between combat styles gets rehashed and reupped. At the end of the day, combat style is further down on the "will I group with you" totem pole as it is. Player > gear > combat style. Great players eliminate the need to even look any further into their weird multiclass mutt build. If they clearly demonstrate they can get the job done (application FTW) theres no reason to banter the rest of the nonsense that ensues.

[BlackSteel]

spreadsheets and calcs are a great tool for comparing gear or build choices on the same character or for the same player. With different drivers or across classes they're just numbers. I dont want to say meaningless, as they do have some value, but take them as a grain of salt. As alot of the classes operate significantly differently.

(take for example rogues practically being disqualified from the egomaniac's DPS challenge)


thought the monkey shroud was prenerf. Kinda like how the fastest time was done by a bunch of AA's during the cooldown bug.

[Alex301]

I suppose by people i really just mean shade :P I try to avoid naming people but i've seen a few threads where he has referenced his DPS challenge and gives the findings as if it settles the matter.

e.g.

It's hard to recommend twf for barbs for several reasons:

Lower DPS. Proven by number math and ingame results thru videos. (Check out my DPS challenge which shows 100% fair results (completely equal chars) comparing a 100% fort and mostly fair -- not 100% equal chars as the 100% fort comparison, but both are very well geared with +4 str tomes) 0% fort target, where twf is quite a bit behind on each.

or to paraphrase 'Proven by my DPS challenge, twf is quite a bit behind.'

It just annoys me that some people will see the results and not be aware of the limitations of the data and will not really understand what it is saying, misinterpreting it and coming to a possibly inaccurate conclusion.

Application results can give valuable information, but there are limited circumstances where we can achieve reliable data and these typically don't represent normal gameplay conditions. And as you said, these also include factors such as player skill, which we cannot recreate. The attraction of graphs and figures is we can get results that we can more easily compare and so is more useful to the reader.

Neither is perfect though and we need to be aware of the problems before we try to infer anything. For example, graphs tend to assume perfect conditions with optimum gear, but few players will be able to recreate this. We also tend to assume that these results scale equally for all classes/builds, but this too is not the case.

All i'm trying to say if that we shouldn't accept these results on face value and neither should they be presented as conclusive evidence.

[Kinerd]

The vacuum calculators like to put monk builds far down on their totem poles for DPS, completely ignoring the fact that the shroud speed records were set by parties loaded with dark monks. ... How come a bunch of dark monks were able to RoflPwn® all other Shroud speed run times when they are way down on the list as far as "calculated in a vacuum" DPS is concerned?

I haven't seen monks mentioned in any of the spreadsheets, care to provide a link?

[Shade]

(take for example rogues practically being disqualified from (breaking forum rules) DPS challenge).

Rogues are absolutely and fully allowed to enter the challenge.

But to allow them to break the rules and try to add them with their own made up rules that dont equal others would just be totally illlogical. The point of the challenge is a 1 on 1 character based challenge that eliminates many variables to keep it consistant and comparable.

If you feel you can create a rogue dps challenge, that is fair to rogues and non-rogues alike. By all means create one.

Else stop breaking the forum rules because you can't figure out how to make your own challenge.

[BlackSteel]

Else stop breaking the forum rules because you can't figure out how to make your own challenge.

lol I put one out several mods ago ty very much

glad you're such a good moderator. I bet you're a hall monitor at school.