TWF Barb Viable?

[Khurse]

So I'd like to restart/reroll a barb. The issue is that I really don't like the THF animations (I'm not fond of TWF either, but it's better than THF imo)
I seem to recall Shade (maybe someone else) making a post that TWF Barbs suffer from a bug with Frenzy though, and one of my friends (who actually follows the whole DPS chart thing) alos says that TWF Barbs aren't where they should be.
So I'm curious, how many of you have TWF Barbs and how do they do? I'm not sure I want to wait another 5 years until they release the Ravager PRE, but I also don't want to gear up a TWF Barb and lose aggro to the Melee Cleric dual wielding Muckbanes.

Anyone running a TWF barb in current endgame (Elite Amrath/Epic) content with huge success ?

[Kinerd]

Absolutely viable. Definitely inferior numerically to eSoS THF in straight combat, but only by 5-10% depending on target. Additionally, with TWF you have access to x4 critical weapons, which makes for good times in auto-crit situations.

[SlogUK]

When Crit rage was in the game it was more viable... Still good though... And when the Ravager pre gets developed I expect it will be excellent.

[chodelord]

One thing about 2wf barb is you probably want to add 2 fighter levels. The capstone is 2 str which is good but not nearly as good as it is for 2hf, 2 fighter levels let you add 1 str enhancement, stunning blow, +1 dc stunning blow, and
khopesh.

Also I'm finding I can't build a twf without starting at 15 dex and expecting a +2 dex tome at level 7 so yeah.

[Baahb3]

I know of a couple TWF pick users that are pretty effective at end game. Like some said, they may not compare with the eSoS right now but with the Ravager PrE and maybe Epic Necropolis and the eDeathnip it might make up that gap.

[Uchuujin-San]

i run a TWF khop 18barb/2rog atm as my main end game melee. DPS is good, not quite up there with eSoS weilders but it's enough to hold aggro without other melees throttling down too much most of the time. HP isnt too bad, though with needing to bump dex to TWF and taking Rog splash for evasion and trapskills (yep.. trapskills lol) hes probably about 40-60 or so hp short of a pure barb.
in terms of a balls out DPS TWF isnt quite top of the pack unless youre hitting held mobs with picks. but neither is it that far behind imo. just remember that with TWF you'll have slightly less HP but double the vicious damage from frenzy, so build and play accordingly i.e. healing amp is even more important to keep my gimpy arse up, use trip alot etc. etc..
i went with a splash simply cause i was after a fairly self sufficient barb. evasion + UMD increased survivability, and haste boost increased DPS (and sped up shortening my HP, thank you frenzy)

TL;DR. TWF is completely viable as long as you dont ignore the extra damage from FB and plan for some awesome heal amp to mitigate that.

[Anthios888]

TWF barbs are uber and much closer/ahead of 2HF than anyone would care to admit. Not having to twitch gives very consistent dps.

I suggest 18 barb / 2 rogue or 18 barb/2 fighter with khopesh. The splash gives haste boost and potentially umd (don't laugh -- it's great for buffing, rezzing, teleporting, d-dooring, etc!), open locks, and sneak attack damage. Not using khopesh will drop you quite a bit, but at least you with greensteels will still be above the non-epic barbarians.

If you can, getting a barbarian past life is highly recommended right now for the way it is currently functiong. So, to fit it in, I would do 18 barb / 2 fighter and use your two additional feats on past life: barbarian and stunning blow.

Example half-orc barbarian 18 / rogue 2: 2wf, i2wf, g2wf, improved critical: slashing, khopesh, power attack, and cleave
Example half-orc barbarian 18 / fighter 2: stunning blow, power attack, past life: barbarian, 2wf, i2wf, g2wf, improved critical: slashing, khopesh, and cleave


Just as a basic idea of what you'd be going for, here is an example. I'd be happy to give any more build breakdown if you care. And, since I see that you're on our server... you could always run us for a couple of epics if that would help =)

[Shade]

It's hard to recommend twf for barbs for several reasons:

Lower DPS. Proven by number math and ingame results thru videos. (Check out my DPS challenge which shows 100% fair results (completely equal chars) comparing a 100% fort and mostly fair -- not 100% equal chars as the 100% fort comparison, but both are very well geared with +4 str tomes) 0% fort target, where twf is quite a bit behind on each.

Twice the difficulty in weapon acquisition. You need twice the shroud ingredients and twice the epic crafting materials to make your gear.. It's quite a grind.

Less range while attacking. Barbs are a very mobile class and imo rely heavily on there speed and movement to reduce damage taken and increase damage dealt to enemies.. TWF can do well in this, but has slighty worse range on some attack animations.

No double strike chances like ranger/ftrs means relying on proc weapons like vorpals is not a great idea. Since TWF is better at vorpaling, thats sometimes a fair method of killing your enemies, but barbs are the worst at vorpaling of any melee class, and best at dps.. So THF tends to be the way to go.

That said, twf is still viable and can be fun to play. I play my lvl20 twf barb frequently, if only on raids... Being all other gear i go for tends to be BTA and i can just give him it when he wants it.

[grodon9999]

Lower DPS. Proven by number math and ingame results thru videos. (Check out my DPS challenge which shows 100% fair results (completely equal chars) comparing a 100% fort and mostly fair -- not 100% equal chars as the 100% fort comparison, but both are very well geared with +4 str tomes) 0% fort target, where twf is quite a bit behind on each.

Is the Frenzy slowing down your swings? In the video it looked like the frenzy damage was causing a small pause. Somebody counted the swings and it was less than a TWFer is supposed to get.

[Shade]

Is the Frenzy slowing down your swings? In the video it looked like the frenzy damage was causing a small pause. Somebody counted the swings and it was less than a TWFer is supposed to get.

imo it "looks" like frenzy slows THF too.

But in reality it slows neither, just a visual glitch as you flitch as you attack. Very annoying and imo should be fixed, but oh well.. Has no real impact.

Whatever your "suppose" to get is wrong obviously. The video is what you get.

[Khanyth]

If you mean "viable" to be "maximum dps/kill everything single handedly"... probably not

If you mean "viable" to be "decent/being able to hold my own".. absolutely.

Anyone can take a character that isn't maxed out and perform relatively well at it. Just like anyone who is a poor player with poor skills can have the best possible race/class/gear combo and suck.

Define viable

[Carpone]

Like some said, they may not compare with the eSoS right now but with the Ravager PrE and maybe Epic Necropolis and the eDeathnip it might make up that gap.

Ravager PrE and Epic Necropolis is wishful thinking. Neither has been been mentioned recently by the devs.

[grodon9999]

Whatever your "suppose" to get is wrong obviously. The video is what you get.

I know what you mean but by TWFer I wasn't specifying Barbs, I was talking about all toons that fight with two weapons.

On my ranger the number of swings I got was what I was "supposed" to get according to Vansihillar's attack-rate testing. I haven't tested my fighter yet.

Easy enough to test . . . do you get more swings if you don't frenzy?

[blackdoguk]

Criticisms of the 2wf route are well versed and reasonable.

However they don't bother me one jot.

I have had my 32pt human khop user (18 barb/2ftr) capped for about 5 months. I run every epic I can and regularly tank end game content (Hard Tod, Vod, Echrono etc etc), with the exception of elite ToD( i'm mainly a pug player.) I have NO problem holding aggro even vs. TR half orc eSos,Lit2 users or whatever. I think as a durable tank/dps character you should look no further. Even with a starting con of 14 ( gota pay for dexterity) my HP still top out at 800 which is more than enough and with the claw set my one armed criticals just topped 400 base damage (yes its not as much as you thf but i could technically scratch my arse while you bozos swing that massive sword and do comparable damage )
Of all criticisms made i think the most pertinent is the gearing question - do you really want to acquire 10 dragonscales to make your min2s? Will it bother you that you require another ten to make a set of lit2s?As i stated i I have been capped for around half a year now, and I have just finished grinding out my ideal DPS setup (took a mere 100 runs of eClaw to get my **** scroll....little bitter :/) Granted most of this is generic barba gear regardless of whether you're one or two handed - if you care a lot about pushing your build to it's limits you'll get it done.
Fundamentally this questions is subjective and irrelevent of gear, dps or any outside influence. I personally prefer the idea of an immensely strong weapon master parrying and spinning his blades around those too clumsy to dual wield. Your going to be playing this character for a long time, he should suit your own tastes.

BD

[blackdoguk]

Also, as just crossed my mind, obviously thf fully raged half orc Esos user is the ideal dps character - we can be sure "it's what Shade would do." However I imagine that you, like me don't have an Esos and will have to proceed down the long road of acquiring one. Over the course of three lives (Barb, Ftr, Barba) I may just get one together. I will keep my 2wf chain (of that im 98% sure) however if I am lucky enough to get the best weapon in the game its no problem for me to whip it out and go for glory. (Uh... ) even without the thf line the biggest dps where it counts (i'm thinking vs single raid bosses) is attainable even without glancing blows. Of course my knowledge of the technical side of this is slim to none, so I humbly await a correction and ticking off from those more numerically minded.

BD

[Anthios888]

is the gearing question - do you really want to acquire 10 dragonscales to make your min2s? Will it bother you that you require another ten to make a set of lit2s?
BD

The fact that dual wielding costs twice as many ingredients is a fair point for any two weapon fighter, but it is also misleading. Greensteel two-handed weapons are soooo far behind dual greensteel khopeshes. Epic Sword of Shadow is the only thing swinging two handed fighting to even be competitive. For a player without an epic sword of shadow ready in the bank, it is more effective to make two tier two greensteels with 0 large ingredients and rock out epics with those than it would be to make one mineral II greataxe/falchion.

[Kinerd]

Somebody counted the swings and it was less than a TWFer is supposed to get.

Also can be explained by Shade's computer on that particular day not being as zippy as Vanshilar's on that other particular day.

I will keep my 2wf chain (of that im 98% sure) however if I am lucky enough to get the best weapon in the game its no problem for me to whip it out and go for glory. (Uh... ) even without the thf line the biggest dps where it counts (i'm thinking vs single raid bosses) is attainable even without glancing blows. Of course my knowledge of the technical side of this is slim to none, so I humbly await a correction and ticking off from those more numerically minded.

Without any THF feats the eSoS will not out-peform GTWF greensteels.

[Kinerd]

The fact that dual wielding costs twice as many ingredients is a fair point for any two weapon fighter, but it is also misleading. Greensteel two-handed weapons are soooo far behind dual greensteel khopeshes. Epic Sword of Shadow is the only thing swinging two handed fighting to even be competitive. For a player without an epic sword of shadow ready in the bank, it is more effective to make two tier two greensteels with 0 large ingredients and rock out epics with those than it would be to make one mineral II greataxe/falchion.

Bears repeating.

[blackdoguk]

Also can be explained by Shade's computer on that particular day not being as zippy as Vanshilar's on that other particular day.Without any THF feats the eSoS will not out-peform GTWF greensteels.

So correct me if i'm wrong - the thf line improves the damage and chance of glancing blows when fighting multiple targets, so vs a single target TWF (all feats taken) out performs all bar the eSOS and its improved crit muliplier?

[trashstack]

Somehow I don't understand why people favor twf KoTC over thf ones so much, but insist thf FB is by far superior than twf ones. Imo the whole FB enhancement line favors twf mor than twf, because I wanna get that 6d6 untyped damage per attack, and I wanna score big crits more often.

On some occasions I admit thf is probably better than twf:
1. ESoS
2. When surrounded by group of mobs (Soloing or intentionally) or when u have to take down a group of hopping crickets all by ur own.
3. Ya for the twitching experts maybe but seems devs don't view twitching as a WAI (successful or not, they have been trying to nerf it) and really twitching is not good for your carpal tunnel lol...
4. THE most important issue imo: In epic content when to-hit begins to matter and u dont wanna drop power attack. Twf -4 to hit plus PA -11 to hit (HOrc) do hurt the dps except for maybe the most ubber geared and buffed twf barbs. THF barb gets +2 (mighty rage and cap) and +4 fighting style and a possible +5 with ESoS.
5. Against fortified mobs with unbreakable DR. (Glancing blow procs less than offhand so thf probably suffers less)
6. Tanking because twf generally has less hp than thf.

Otherwise, say in non-epic raids and grouped quests, I believe twf barbs functions just as well, if not even slightly better than thf barbs.