Can This Toon Be Saved?

[Oakianus]

Okay, so I'm a noob. So much of a noob that I don't know if this type of thread is frowned upon or what's going on. Long time 3.5 player in tabletop and I'm learning about the vast differences slowly but surely.... but I really feel like my toon is way off course, especially with those horrible, horrible skills being all over the place. See, I thought I could get away being sorta so-so with traps, and it turns out that's pretty worthless... so I already know that's one place for improvement.

I have like 60k plat thanks to a high level friend who gave me some seed money (most of which I blew on a +2 Charisma tome) but I don't feel like I know what to look for in gear. I know at least two or three of my gear slots are completely wasted, but have no idea what I ought to be looking for to put in those slots.

Anyway! Is there anything else that I need to be doing with myself? Should I just wait until I can get a lesser reincarnation and follow a good guide? I initially started the character off to be a Warchanter, not thinking about the fact that there's a strength requirement for Power Attack, so I'm a Spellsinger now. I love the vast amounts of MP and being able to rain buffs, but feel like I could be a lot more useful and at least do a little bit of DPS on the side.

tl;dr - HALP ME

Str 8
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 8
Chr 18

Balance - 5
Bluff - 5
Concentration - 5
Diplomacy - 11
Disable Device - 5
Haggle - 11
Move Silently - 5
Open Lock - 1
Perform - 11
Search - 2
Tumble - 5
UMD - 11

Feats
Mental Toughness
TWF
Weapon Finesse

Spells:
1st - CLW, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Summon Monster I

2nd - Blur, CMW, Heroism, Invisibility

3rd - Displacement, Haste

Enhancements:

Bard Extra Song I, Bard Inspired Attack I, Bard Inspired Damage I, Bard Lingering Song I, Bard Spellsinger I, Halfling Dexterity I, Halfling Cunning I, Halfling Guile I, Improved Concentration II, Bard Lyric of Song I, Bard Song Magic II, Bard Energy of Music II, Bard Charisma II.
Gear:

Goggles - +2 Int, +3 Disable Device
Hat - Captain's Chapeau with +5 Natural Armor
Necklace - +2 Con, Burning Hands
Trinket - Prot. from Evil
Cloak - Charisma +3, Hide +3
Belt - Str +3, See Invisible 1/day.
Ring1 - Poison Immunity, Shield
Gloves - Dex +3, Open Lock +3
Boots - Feather Falling, Hypnotic Pattern 1/day
Ring2 - Resistance +1
Bracers - Axe Bane
Armor - +5 Mithral Chain Shirt.

[TheDearLeader]

Just Level 7, right?

I would suggest a re-roll at this point, before you invest any more time/XP into this Character. Read The Diva's Bard Love Guide and try again. There's some builds linked in there, as well, that may assist you. I count at least 5 Spellsinger builds linked in that thread.

Go from there, try again.

Hint : Constitution is not a dump stat.

May the Sovereign Host guide you.

[Oakianus]

Just Level 7, right?

I would suggest a re-roll at this point, before you invest any more time/XP into this Character. Read The Diva's Bard Love Guide and try again. There's some builds linked in there, as well, that may assist you. I count at least 5 Spellsinger builds linked in that thread.

Go from there, try again.

Hint : Constitution is not a dump stat.

May the Sovereign Host guide you.

Level 8, actually. Bard 7/Rogue 1. Going to take another level of Rogue next level, I think, for the purposes of Evasion.

Is the character that irredeemable, though? Seriously? I'm actually sort of emotionally invested in him and I don't think I could take the grind of getting another character this far. ><

[TheDearLeader]

Level 8, actually. Bard 7/Rogue 1. Going to take another level of Rogue next level, I think, for the purposes of Evasion.

Is the character that irredeemable, though? Seriously? I'm actually sort of emotionally invested in him and I don't think I could take the grind of getting another character this far. ><

The reason you consider the road to be level 8 "Such a grind" is probably, at least in part, due to the build you're working with.

Could you get this particular toon to 20? Yeah. You, or anyone else for that matter, can make it to level 20 as a Soul Stone. But you'd probably make it there a lot faster with a more living-friendly build.

Don't worry about it. A lot of people don't get their first toons to 20. I suppose, though, if you really wanted to get this to 20, you could LR it to reflect one of the builds listed in that forum post.

[Oakianus]

The reason you consider the road to be level 8 "Such a grind" is probably, at least in part, due to the build you're working with.

Could you get this particular toon to 20? Yeah. You, or anyone else for that matter, can make it to level 20 as a Soul Stone. But you'd probably make it there a lot faster with a more living-friendly build.

Don't worry about it. A lot of people don't get their first toons to 20. I suppose, though, if you really wanted to get this to 20, you could LR it to reflect one of the builds listed in that forum post.

Well, I'm just not much for playing MMOs. I'm actually pretty decent at soloing quests of my level and can get by without much in the way of problems. I can pull off somewhat useful DPS, especially when I manage to start up with the sneak attacks. But a week or two of playing quests on the daily sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

So, that said... how about the gear? Can anyone recommend any decent gear at all, at least?

[andbr22]

Unfortunetly without reincarnation (lesser) it can't be saved...

Problems too high Dex, too Con. (most of table top people have this problem - endgame AC is usless unless you are specially speced for it, and have apropriate gear, We are talking about game where monsters use fire balls for 300 dmg (you must be able to survive at least this on failed save))...

You came a bit too late for this for forum, you lost most of the event, and made good BTC equipment (for lower levels).
Without good equipment i would say to simply reroll character. Also event will be bvack at the end of march (keep in mind).

[licho]

IMHO:

Read a little more the bard forum, and check various builds, maybe some will look fine for your needs.

Decide if you want more offensive spelcasting or more dps.
Buffing is base for all bards.

Start another toon with better stat split. If there will be no difference come back to first.
(however i suppose it will be easy to spot the difference).

On this toon there is quite a lot suboptimal things.

As for equpment:
- Get +7 skill itemz for Search and DD. If you like you can have + int items but on different slot, or use fox wand/clickies.
- The trap set you can wear only when trap happens. So you googles could be trapblast from STK or insight from korthos. Or anything else boosting saves or combat.
- Same goes to featherfall or disease.
- Grab some fortification and false life item.

For the traps:
grab enchantment skill boost, free agents +2 tools, and use it with Heroics on.

[Paleus]

People do not frown on these types of posts, people love giving advice, sometimes to show how awesome they themselves are and other times to help people get the most out of this game and become better players.

Here are some questions first: Are you F2P, P2P, or premium? If you are F2P/Premium you definitely do not want to be spending points on a lesser reincarnation heart (about the only way you'll see one for a looong time) and this build is in need of a stat overhaul. At best, the character you have here is suited to buff at the beginning, keep people buffed, toss some heals and throw down crowd control from a very safe distance. That is because you do not have the strength to keep up in melee and with a 10 con you aren't going to last long in melee anyway. Now, some parties are going to be fine with that, but people at higher levels will start noticing your glass jaw.

Now for your options: If you are F2P you should have a spare slot, I'd suggest rolling another character (you don't necessarily have to do delete this one just yet). See how long it takes you to level up that character. The first couple of times leveling seems like a long grind because you are still learning the ropes of the game, but after that eight levels go by fairly quickly.

If you find you would like to be hitting things and not dying as much, and dont really mind not having full on bard buffy goodness, look into the axesinger build.

Note: Being able to do traps is really a lot about how much gear you have, and that is hard on a first time player. Most first time trapsmiths don't keep up with the gear requirements for traps and start blowing them more at your level. I would suggest any future build you have to not worry about traps until you've built up a plat reserve to invest in that kind of gear, weapons and stat bonus gear taking precedence at this time.

[Emili]

What were the starting stats and race?

[Gorbadoc]

What were the starting stats and race?

I was thinking the same thing. That looks like a 26-pt drow, a 38-pt human, a 34-pt halfling... I'm drawing a blank as to what race would make it 28-pt or 32-pt.

As for playability, yeah, you are all over the place, OP. Go ahead and keep playing this build while planning possible replacements for him. If you can get your hands on some decent light armor (+4 or +5 mithral chain or mithral breastplate are things to keep an eye out for), then your armor class should help keep you alive until around level 10 or 12 (when you enter Zawabi's Refuge or Gianthold, at which time the game will become painfully frustrating if you can't get your constitution up). You can try to make up for your low strength by having good weapons, but those can be expensive, and they'll only get you but so far.

In planning a new character, try to focus your build priorities. Learn what is always useful in DDO, what is occasionally useful, and what is just a convenience. Pick one universally useful thing to do in combat, and focus on that one thing. Some abilities allow dabbling, but keep an eye on your focus.

For example:
A melee bard will have high strength and high constitution. He can also squeeze in stealth skills and some healing without detracting much from his melee ability. Also, since he's a bard, he gets amazing buffs and song-based crowd control for very little investment.

Another example:
A spell-based crowd control bard will have a maxed charisma and decent constitution (at least 14 base). He can squeeze in stealth skills, solid healing, and some light melee ability (toss any spare points into strength and carry a decent two-handed weapon). Also, same as any bard, he should make the investment in his buffs and song-based crowd control (max Inspired Attack and Inspired damage, and look into the Music of the Dead and Music of Makers abilities).

[Oakianus]

What were the starting stats and race?

Oh! Completely forgot about this part.

Those are the starting stats, so they don't include my +2 Charisma Tome, +2 Cha from Enhancements, etc. I also didn't bother putting any of the bonuses from my gear.

I am p2p, so I think that I'll tough it out til I accumulate enough points for that lesser heart, which should only take another few weeks if the points work the way that I think they do. I read about the fact that Con is such a major factor shortly after rolling my toon, but I've actually been doing pretty well. Not that I never die, of course, but I don't notice myself going down any more often than the other toons in my PUGs. :P I just make sure not to wade in until the tank has had a chance to get a couple of swings in and keep pain off of me - it also allows me to make sure all of my attacks get that sneak attack bonus to hit and damage, which are a huge help with my Bard BAB.

I have done quite a bit of the event, so what should I be getting from it? I'm currently working toward the level 12 spyglass and hope to get enough to upgrade it fully, and I've got a +5 natural armor hat and a +6 Charisma hat out of the event.

I really feel like, as I tough it out, I could do a LOT better for equip. False life seems like it's a good idea right now with my HP total being in the high 70s/low 80s, but I'm sure there's at least one or two other things I could pick up to survive til the middle-high levels when it's finally time to get that LR. :P

Also, thanks for all the help so far!

[Indoran]

Your Con 10 says: re-roll

You have had trouble getting here... but in level 14+ you will go squish squish squish...

Get at least 14 Con.

Also keep in mind that dex 18 is sooooo cool now... but after level 14 +/- you need uber AC to avoid getting hit (and being a bard that's very difficult to accomplish. that's why con 10 is a bad idea, because you will be hit no matter what)

You may love your toon... but this is a love that will bring you pain.

[Oakianus]

I was thinking the same thing. That looks like a 26-pt drow, a 38-pt human, a 34-pt halfling... I'm drawing a blank as to what race would make it 28-pt or 32-pt.

Oh! I started with a 16 Charisma - the plus 2 comes from my level 4 and level 8 stat bonuses. The term '****ing duh' comes to mind. :P

And thanks for the advice! It seems pretty good. I actually played this character in TT as mainly a buffer (I'd spend at least the first three rounds inspiring courage, since you can play forever and it lasts x rounds after you stop) and then dive in and do little sneak attacks and annoy the **** out of things. Having an AC in the mid to high 30s at higher levels (Well, up to 12th or so) worked really well.

But my group was never much for major twinkiness and optimizing, to be sure, so most of our character sheets ended up looking this bad. :P

So that's the major lesson I'm getting here and what I'll focus on. Con, con, con. Maybe squeeze in a bit of strength, too, and go with a two-handed staff so I don't have to blow a feat on TWF? I'm thinking of a spellsinger with DPS, doing a few quick combat buffs while the tanks draw the monsters' collective ire and then wading in to bust people in the head, backing out to help the cleric heal when needed. Or is that still too divided in purpose?

[augie]

Option #1: Accept the role as a party buff-bot, max out your buffs/songs and pike your way to 20.

Option #2: Reroll with the knowledge you have now into a far more superior version of your current character.

If it makes you feel any better, your situation is very common and there's no shame in rerolling. The first couple characters I first made were abysmal (to put it nicely) and sometimes ya just have to bite the bullet and say "yep, I really messed this one up, but I know a lot more now and my next character will be WAY better."

Also, if you're multi-classing rogue, I'm assuming you're starting out level 1 as a rogue to take advantage of their massive amount of skill points. If you're starting out as a level 1 bard, you'll miss out on a lot of points.

Safe travels

Aug

[Oakianus]

Option #1: Accept the role as a party buff-bot, max out your buffs/songs and pike your way to 20.

Option #2: Reroll with the knowledge you have now into a far more superior version of your current character.

If it makes you feel any better, your situation is very common and there's no shame in rerolling. The first couple characters I first made were abysmal (to put it nicely) and sometimes ya just have to bite the bullet and say "yep, I really messed this one up, but I know a lot more now and my next character will be WAY better."

Also, if you're multi-classing rogue, I'm assuming you're starting out level 1 as a rogue to take advantage of their massive amount of skill points. If you're starting out as a level 1 bard, you'll miss out on a lot of points.

Safe travels

Aug

Yes, I was even dumb enough to make this mistake. Went with Rogue as my second level, not first, and regretted it shortly thereafter.

I dunno, I guess I have just invested a lot mentally into the thought of this character being given license to roam around a new world, so replacing him with a copy of himself just feels like it would be massively cheating at this point. I am FULLY AWARE that this is completely stupid and that any RP component I have experienced to this game so far has been 100% in my head, but that's okay. I like being crazy ALL BY MYSELF.

On the bright side, I should be getting to the levels where I can LR right when it sounds like the game is going to massively shift gears on me, so I am completely down like a clown, charlie b-b-brown. Is it going to be worth the extra it takes to get a +2 heart so I can swap my first and second levels, thus milking out more skill points?

[augie]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend investing a whole lot of Turbine Points and tomes into your first character. It's completely fine to keep rollin with this guy and I completely understand the "attachment" you have to your first character as I felt the same way about my first guy that was... sub-par to say the least. However the last thing you want to do is spend real money to fix your character only to realize you forgot about something else and now something else isn't quite right.

With your current stats and gear setup, your boy is still not "beefy" enough to be in the front lines of a party for most quests. Even if you don't have initial aggro in a party, you'll be encountering more sweeping cleave attacks and multiple strike attacks that will crush you quickly. A secondary healer and party buffer/crowd controller would be the most suitable with your current situation. If that's not your cup of tea, then as a multi-class character, a cautious and very well thought out Lesser Reincarnate may be your best bet to reallocate the skills and stats you want to get your bard fine-tuned a little better.

[Gorbadoc]

Option #1: Accept the role as a party buff-bot, max out your buffs/songs and pike your way to 20.

Option #2: Reroll with the knowledge you have now into a far more superior version of your current character.

Option #3: Design a whole new character. Knight of the Chalice paladins make great self-sufficient DPSers on a shoestring budget, for example. In designing your new character, get feedback from other players. If you're smart about it, you can easily get a solid character who is different from your bard. Playing another class may also give you additional perspective on what you want to do with your bard.

So that's the major lesson I'm getting here and what I'll focus on. Con, con, con. Maybe squeeze in a bit of strength, too, and go with a two-handed staff so I don't have to blow a feat on TWF? I'm thinking of a spellsinger with DPS, doing a few quick combat buffs while the tanks draw the monsters' collective ire and then wading in to bust people in the head, backing out to help the cleric heal when needed. Or is that still too divided in purpose?

Check out other threads on the subject. I think someone already linked The Diva's Bard Love Guide, but also be sure to check out a variety of character builds, both bard and non-bard. Notice what concerns weigh heavily on people's minds.

For DPS builds, the big concerns will be survivability and damage per second.

For caster builds, the big concerns will be survivability and spell DCs.

There's a reason for this: When the going gets tough, DPSers need to kill faster/die less, and casters need to land spells more often/die less. That is the difference between success and failure (okay, there's also healing).

You want to be a caster bard? Fine: give yourself some token melee ability for when the going is easy, but remember that, when bad stuff is going down, you want to be as good as you possibly can at landing your crowd control and healing your buddies.

And, of course, buffs are always a special case: Even if they detract a bit from your own melee or casting abilities, they help the rest of the party do their main jobs.

[andbr22]

Tommorow there is lesser reincarnation sale (50% off).

http://www.ddo.com/turbinetuesdays

You can always buy, and wait a bit before you use it...

[Oakianus]

Option #3: Design a whole new character. Knight of the Chalice paladins make great self-sufficient DPSers on a shoestring budget, for example. In designing your new character, get feedback from other players. If you're smart about it, you can easily get a solid character who is different from your bard. Playing another class may also give you additional perspective on what you want to do with your bard.


Check out other threads on the subject. I think someone already linked The Diva's Bard Love Guide, but also be sure to check out a variety of character builds, both bard and non-bard. Notice what concerns weigh heavily on people's minds.

For DPS builds, the big concerns will be survivability and damage per second.

For caster builds, the big concerns will be survivability and spell DCs.

There's a reason for this: When the going gets tough, DPSers need to kill faster/die less, and casters need to land spells more often/die less. That is the difference between success and failure (okay, there's also healing).

You want to be a caster bard? Fine: give yourself some token melee ability for when the going is easy, but remember that, when bad stuff is going down, you want to be as good as you possibly can at landing your crowd control and healing your buddies.

And, of course, buffs are always a special case: Even if they detract a bit from your own melee or casting abilities, they help the rest of the party do their main jobs.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276665 - I'm really loving this thread, as it's pointing me in the direction of where I want to go - a Melee Spellsinger with good bard songs/buffs, good backup healing, TWF for halfway decent backup DPS - basically, a bit of everything to help the party all over, not least with tons of bard songs and whatnot.

If I go that route, should I just say fuggedaboudit and go 100% pure bard? I really like being able to abuse my high reflex score with some evasion, but I don't want to end up gimpified.

Also, I'm thinking that when I do LR, I'll go with 14 con? Is even that dumping, and I should shoot for 16?

Personally, I wouldn't recommend investing a whole lot of Turbine Points and tomes into your first character. It's completely fine to keep rollin with this guy and I completely understand the "attachment" you have to your first character as I felt the same way about my first guy that was... sub-par to say the least. However the last thing you want to do is spend real money to fix your character only to realize you forgot about something else and now something else isn't quite right.

With your current stats and gear setup, your boy is still not "beefy" enough to be in the front lines of a party for most quests. Even if you don't have initial aggro in a party, you'll be encountering more sweeping cleave attacks and multiple strike attacks that will crush you quickly. A secondary healer and party buffer/crowd controller would be the most suitable with your current situation. If that's not your cup of tea, then as a multi-class character, a cautious and very well thought out Lesser Reincarnate may be your best bet to reallocate the skills and stats you want to get your bard fine-tuned a little better.

MUST SPEND WHATEVER IT TAKES. :P

Seriously though, I know it's sort of awful, but given the comment I quoted directly below this, at least it won't be TOO awful, and I honestly got dead lucky on that one. I'm definitely looking forward to being able to make my character into something that can join a PUG when I hit epic levels without everyone wanting to strangle me to death. :P Or hell, even when I hit the low teens (which is the highest that I ever got a PnP D&D character, so I'm definitely lost when it gets higher than that anyway. :P)

Tommorow there is lesser reincarnation sale (50% off).

http://www.ddo.com/turbinetuesdays

You can always buy, and wait a bit before you use it...

I can't even begin to tell you how much I love you for this post. I mean, I could, but it would get silly pretty damned quickly.

[Gorbadoc]

Don't feel like you need to jump on the TWF bandwagon. Actually, on a first character, I advise against going TWF (Paladins are the exception). TWF damage beats THF damage when the builds have comparable strength and comparable weapons. But guess what: You're short on ability score points (bard is an ability-score intensive class), so it's tricky to get that dex up AND keep that strength up AND invest in auxiliary stats (touch of cha for casting, touch of int if you want to fit in stealth skills, a heaping helping of con if you don't want to die horribly...). Also, you're short on money. Good weapons are expensive, and if you go TWF, you'll have to obtain twice as many.