Which class makes you go urrrgh!*facepalm*

[shadow_419]

um my math didn't account for a 1.1, so your point is moot. I specifically gave the bare minimums for a reason which are: 0.65 x 1.2 (hf1 and leviks) f

i wasn't arguing with the idea that healing amp is worthless. but you ask anyone to take 10AP out of their build for 50hp on a heal. they will laugh at you for the next century.

at end I sit at:

normal quest/raiding
0.80 (hf II & finger) x 1.05 (pally PL I) x 1.2 (DT armor) x 1.1 (dt armor) = just about 110% (add around 10% for ship buff for ~122%) correction

when heals are tight:
.8 (hfII & finger) x 1.05 (pally PL I) x 1.2 (DT armor) x 1.1 (dt armor) x 1.3 (trip pos GS or epic gloves of claw) = 144 (add 10% for ship buff for ~ 155%)

450 x 1.55 = 697 heal I love those

once I hit 16 i switch to cure pots. it's hilarious when people ask me why I'm not using repair pots and I have to tell them that cure pots heal me more

1.1 I included accounts for the easiest to get sources of 10% (Either DT or ship buff)

That's the problem. When you think of it as 10 AP for 50 hp/heal, it's like you say ridiculous sounding. When it's a 10% increase towards the goal of having a positive healing amp number, it's not so ridiculous anymore.

[Asketes]

1.1 I included accounts for the easiest to get sources of 10% (Either DT or ship buff)

That's the problem. When you think of it as 10 AP for 50 hp/heal, it's like you say ridiculous sounding. When it's a 10% increase towards the goal of having a positive healing amp number, it's not so ridiculous anymore.

till they lose con or toughness or something more valuable.

it's both

10AP for 50hp
and
10% closer to positive

fair enough on why you included 10%, good catch..

[Dematto]

I generally accept the first 5 to request, unless I have some foreknowledge of the quest (traps on a hard/elite run, etc). As a healer, the biggest problem I usually run in to is keeping up Arcanes, Rogues and Rangers. I had a guy yelling at me the other day after I spoonfed him my entire mana bar to keep him on his feet (poor decision, I know), he died anyway. Shrined, then next fight he died and I let him stay dead until the fight was over. His response was to go check out the armory or whatever it is and call me out "Dude, you don't have the stats or gear to heal, you should probably not be here until you get it." I calmly asked him what gear I should have that would boost casting. "Potency", he said. "Got Devotion 6, that covers the 3 spells I use." "Up your charisma" he said. "29SP/2Cha, if I had 20 more charisma, that'd be, what, 290 SP? That's ....4 more heals per shrine? Not bad, but not a lot for how expensive it would be" "Well, LR or something, you suck."

He went on the list.

. I've seen people come down on guilds before. In fact, before my FvS was in the guild I'm in now, I used to hear people cry about the guild all the time, saying it was full of losers and people who didn't know how to play, etc. But, ultimately, I probably won't hold that against someone unless the Guild somehow gets proven to be full of griefers. I just joined for the airship. I generalize that to you as well, and assume you just joined for the airship.

In fact, that's probably one of the reasons I ended up joining; it IS a guild that just admits anybody, which means the roster is colossal and the shipbuffs are paid for by someone else. Sure, it can't support it's growth on Renown anymore, and has lost Level 61 every day for the last 3 weeks. That's not my fault, I've pointed out the problem dozens of times, and get told to shut up, that I'm making the basic math worse by talking about it.
/rant end

[Thrudh]

you can often see vet-like folks trying out odd things or doing LRs before a TR that makes for some interesting-looking builds. Are they still capable? Yes.

Heh, I'm LRing three times to change a 18/1/1 cleric/fighter/wizard into a 10/8/1 wizard/cleric/fighter... Then I'll TR (because wizard past life is about 10x better than a cleric past life).

I wasn't planning on actually PLAYING this guy as I LR, but maybe I should try to join some groups during those three weeks for fun...

Week 1 - 15/4/1 cleric/wizard/fighter
Week 2 - 12/7/1 cleric/wizard/fighter
Week 3 - 9/10/1 cleric/wizard/fighter

[SmashBang]

the only one that bothers me is a rogue splash that can not open locks at all.

doing an offering of blood and needed someone to open locks for max loot possible, fighter with a rogue splash joined. At the first locked door we are waiting and the figther/rogue says "is someone going to open this?" We tell him that is his job

his reply " oh I can't open lock, I took rogue splash just to disable traps"

***? Take a splash of rogue and skip 1 of the 2 skills that splash provides????

[Anthios888]

And if you do which weird class make up would make you go no way!

[Postumus]

4 AP for 5% isn't worth it.

I generally take I and II on permaforged, but that's b/c that 5% turns into 9% with some of the gear I wear (adds instead of multiplies)

think about it.. a cure mod probably hits a normal fleshy for maybe 30-40
so take 30

HF I - 30 x 0.65 = 19.5
HF II - 30 x 0.70 = 21

for a lvl 5 barb with 130-150 hp.. 2 hp isn't worth 4 ap at that level.

take an 850 hp barb with a heal for what 450?

HF I - 450 x .65 = 292.5
HF II - 450 x .70 = 315

not a great difference.

fortunately a well played barb doesn't sit at 65% or 70%

my wf sits at 90% with ship buffs, or 80% without at lvl 2 and at lvl 16 I hit 150/140% healing amp

will be 160%/150% when I'm done tr'ing.


Not all warforged will get that much, but with HF1 and leviks bracers they can get close to being normal at least.

0.65 x 1.2 = .78 = 78% healing amp.

even if they go to HFIII for TEN extra points

.75 x 1.2 = 0.9 x 450 = 405 heal
.65 x 1.2 = 0.78 x 450 = 351 heal

50 hp ain't too too big of a deal when ya sit at 850-1100 hp and you play your guy right.

thankfully, i sit at above 100 though
ANY melee WF that doesn't take healers friend I is a let down.. they can use my math against me and with gear it works fine, but 15% is really really cheap for 2AP

You do a good job supporting your argument here for higher level heals. At low level though, that 65% is brutal on divine sps.


I still wince when I see the WF barbarian join and think "you couldn't have rolled a half-orc? Really?"

[azrael4h]

the only one that bothers me is a rogue splash that can not open locks at all.

doing an offering of blood and needed someone to open locks for max loot possible, fighter with a rogue splash joined. At the first locked door we are waiting and the figther/rogue says "is someone going to open this?" We tell him that is his job

his reply " oh I can't open lock, I took rogue splash just to disable traps"

***? Take a splash of rogue and skip 1 of the 2 skills that splash provides????

And how many skill points do Fighters get? It takes 2 to keep up DD, and since you need search as well, there's 2 more gone. So the Fighter needs to spend a total of 6 skill points in order to justify the rogue splash (which is more often taken for evasion and UMD than traps or locks). To be frank, I'd take UMD before Open lock, since there's so few areas that actually need it in any capacity. Next time, ask if the Rogue splash can do locks, or specify in the LFM that you want a locksmith only. Maybe on a Bard or Ranger, who get a good number of skill points, but Fighters I'd assume they hit the splash for evasion and UMD.

I tend to take the first 5 that join, regardless of class or build. I do, however, tend to accept Rogues more readily since I understand they can have issues finding groups. I tend to not accept Rangers as readily, as they can easily be one of the most messed up classes in the games (I know the strengths of one, it's just that far too many are too poorly built to make it worth the slot). And I've yet to find a Horc who isn't squishy, so I'm getting more and more wary of them as well.

Some of the best players I've had the fortune to group with have had off-the-wall builds like Sorc12/Pal6/Rog2 or some such. So I'm not bothered by those mixes usually.

[Anthios888]

And how many skill points do Fighters get? It takes 2 to keep up DD, and since you need search as well, there's 2 more gone. So the Fighter needs to spend a total of 6 skill points in order to justify the rogue splash (which is more often taken for evasion and UMD than traps or locks). To be frank, I'd take UMD before Open lock, since there's so few areas that actually need it in any capacity. Next time, ask if the Rogue splash can do locks, or specify in the LFM that you want a locksmith only.

This would be true if you needed more than 4 ranks in OL to get most locks in the game. Easily achievable at level 1 rogue.

[Asketes]

You do a good job supporting your argument here for higher level heals. At low level though, that 65% is brutal on divine sps.
but still that's my point exactly, at the high lvls you actually are more inclined from both the healer and the wf for getting the better HF, but at the low level, when AP are very critical, it can amount to 5 more hp... which means it's the melee's jobs on healing themselves.


I still wince when I see the WF barbarian join and think "you couldn't have rolled a half-orc? Really?"this last statment makes zero sense, both are highly viable races for melee DPS

I realize I've been around for a while and have plenty of money to buy things like hundreds of rep serious. but up until lvl 10 and usually just about anywhere. I tell the healers that unless you see me below 50% health, to not even bother healing me. I'll take care of myself

[Cairo]

Two


1. AAs who haven't realised that they got TWF for free and should USE IT

This bugs me. I dont get why people hate on AAs for not meleeing.
Theyve spent EVERY SINGLE AP they have on AA enhancements, and have some nice bonuses.

Yes, they get TWF, ITWF, and GTWF for free.

They also get Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Imp. Precise Shot for free.

They get MORE archery feats for free than melee feats, yet if they dont ignore all their archery feats, weapons, APs, bonuses, etc the entire time theyre playing except for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, theyre bad players?

I play a tempest, and Ive played an AA as well. My AA almost never meleed and my tempest rarely pulls a bow. Why? Cause my AA's Silver Bow with Imbued Arrows outdamages his weaker melee weapons, and my Tempest's Silver Bow with Silver Arrows doesnt outdamage his dual Min IIs, and wouldnt come CLOSE to outdamaging dual Lit IIs.


Hating on AAs for actually using ranged is like hating on HOs for being anything other than THF Barbs.

[SlogUK]

If I see 19 wiz one sorc, or 19 barb 1 cleric or similar then I will accept only if I know the group and people in it well enough to know that I can help the guy learn the quest. I'll then accept him, be nice to him, try and explain what his role would be if so and so wasn't doing it, and at the end, part on good terms. Then 2 minutes later I'll pm him an "oh and I was wondering about your build". This opens a discussion where I can try and disabuse him of any notions he may have wrongly had to make that choice. And hey,i might learn something.

[nolaureltree000]

other than the divine/arcane caster splits, i dont really turn down many people based on their builds. i think it annoys me more when you have an LFM up for a trapmonkey and a barbarian hits it, then sends you a tell when when you decline them saying 'u dont need a rogue for this'.

i have noticed that my 4pally/3monk gets declined from time to time. i guess some people dont like that class split =/

[AylinIsAwesome]

Hating on AAs for actually using ranged is like hating on HOs for being anything other than THF Barbs.

But Half Orcs really make much better TWF Kensei Fighters with dual Khopeshes.

[MrWizard]

that 12 sorc/6 pally/2 rogue


no thanks

[PopeJual]

This bugs me. I dont get why people hate on AAs for not meleeing.

Because melee is SO much more effective against a single target that using a bow when an enemy is right in your face is less effective than whipping out a pair of nice melee weapons EVEN FOR AN ARCANE ARCHER (as long as the AA hasn't made Strength a dump stat).

The AA will do more damage per hit with his bow. Bows shoot so slowly outside of manyshot that melee will still end up doing more DPS than the bow unless you've actively gone out of the way to gimp yourself in melee.

[ColdNapalm]

the only one that bothers me is a rogue splash that can not open locks at all.

doing an offering of blood and needed someone to open locks for max loot possible, fighter with a rogue splash joined. At the first locked door we are waiting and the figther/rogue says "is someone going to open this?" We tell him that is his job

his reply " oh I can't open lock, I took rogue splash just to disable traps"

***? Take a splash of rogue and skip 1 of the 2 skills that splash provides????

He actually had disable and search kept up as a fighter? Impressive. A rogue splash with a ranger or wizard not keeping rogue skill up is bad...but a fighter and his 2 skill points + measly int not keeping all 3 skills up is reasonable...he would need 18 int (or 16 and human) to be able to do that.

[ColdNapalm]

This bugs me. I dont get why people hate on AAs for not meleeing.
Theyve spent EVERY SINGLE AP they have on AA enhancements, and have some nice bonuses.

Yes, they get TWF, ITWF, and GTWF for free.

They also get Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Imp. Precise Shot for free.

They get MORE archery feats for free than melee feats, yet if they dont ignore all their archery feats, weapons, APs, bonuses, etc the entire time theyre playing except for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, theyre bad players?

I play a tempest, and Ive played an AA as well. My AA almost never meleed and my tempest rarely pulls a bow. Why? Cause my AA's Silver Bow with Imbued Arrows outdamages his weaker melee weapons, and my Tempest's Silver Bow with Silver Arrows doesnt outdamage his dual Min IIs, and wouldnt come CLOSE to outdamaging dual Lit IIs.


Hating on AAs for actually using ranged is like hating on HOs for being anything other than THF Barbs.

Your doing it wrong.

A tempest should MS to start off before pulling his two weapons out to kick butt. MS is just THAT good...and it's free DPS. You do ZERO damage when your running towards the enemy so might as well take a nice little pot shot.

An AA that is kiting and taking shots while MS cools down is not only tanking just his DPS but that of the entire party. Remember what I said about doing zero damage while your running?!?

[Zachski]

Tempests that forget they have free bow feats

Just to even it out.

[PopeJual]

Tempests that forget they have free bow feats

Just to even it out.

This is true. The first time I actually used a bow on my Tempest (who was a TR from a prior Paladin) was in VoN3 when someone asked me why I wasn't pew pewing the trolls before we all jumped down to that fight.

That's also the run where someone explained how the Marut fight at the end worked and I discovered the joys of manyshot.