Coming from a PnP player, how good this dex fighter will be in DDO?

[GERGE]

I've started the game this week and am absolutely loving it But the thing is, I have no idea how the gameplay of DDO works in the endgame. I am experienced in PnP (more then 10 years now) and in the games I've played over the years, I've hated powerplaying. So, I've created a character I would very much like to play for myself without any knowledge about state of the endgame and items in DDO and without any regard to powergaming.

I am casual player so I don't want to be forced to make a new character after months of playing but I also don't want to formulate everything. I was only thinking about an agile halfling girl who fights fast and light.

Can I survive the endgame of DDO with her? Did I even do the planning right?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Adachi Rin
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(15 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 2 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 276
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 30
Reflex: 30
Will: 23

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    16
Dexterity            17                    24
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma             15                    20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     7
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         3                     6
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  4                    11
Intimidate            3                    22
Jump                  5                    23
Listen                1                     3
Move Silently         4                     9
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                4                     4
Spot                  5                     7
Swim                  1                     3
Tumble                6                    10
Use Magic Device      5                    10

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Halfling Thrown Weapon Damage I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 8 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) III


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Blocking


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery III
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) III
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) III
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III

Another question about skills: I usually give them to skills like diplomacy, bluff, haggle, listen; but I didn't think they would work like they do in aPnP game here. Am I right?

[Jaid314]

can you survive? sure. probably. if you play reasonably well, and get the usual basic gear requirements (heavy fortification, heavy fortification, and heavy fortification all come to mind as important basic defensive requirements for every character in every situation).

do i think you'll have a lot of fun, and add a lot to most parties? nope. you'll be there, and i'm sure you'll be swinging your weapons (rapiers, i'm guessing?) but the damage just won't really be there, and you won't really add much else. if you absolutely must make a dex build, you can do that (but there isn't really any logical reason to do so). but don't dump stat strength.

also... you really should get a prestige enhancement. in your case, you're not going to be a damage-dealing machine, so i almost want to suggest stalwart defender... but be aware that stalwart defenders are not strictly speaking needed in *any* content, and are only even particularly helpful in a small percentage of content.

[unbongwah]

Well, your build is certainly...novel. But in this case, that's not really a compliment.

The issues I see: DEX-/Finesse-based chars do less DPS than STR-based ones, but your build doesn't bring anything to the table to help make up for that loss; you don't even have enough STR to take Power Attack. [Fighters & barbarians are particularly bad choices for DEX-based chars because so much of their DPS comes from maxing their STR.] You don't have a ftr PrE to boost your offense (Kensai) or defense (SD); and ftr 15 is a bad stopping pt in general. Ranged DPS is significantly lower than melee DPS; you've burned several feats on archery but unfortunately I suspect it's only enough to make you a mostly half-@$$ed archer rather than a fully half-@$$ed one.

Overall your build just seems rather unfocused to me, which in DDO is usually spelled "G - I - M - P." What exactly do you want to do with this char: solo? PUG? Raid? If you're not a dedicated soloer, what do you want to add to a party?

[Angelus_dead]

I've started the game this week and am absolutely loving it But the thing is, I have no idea how the gameplay of DDO works in the endgame

To put it very briefly, your +damage bonus on attacks will become more important than your +attack modifier (because at some point you reach 95% attack success and anything more doesn't help). Strength adds +damage and +attack, while dexterity can only be +attack.

So don't be dexterity based, unless maybe you are a rogue or monk.

I am experienced in PnP (more then 10 years now) and in the games I've played over the years, I've hated powerplaying.

Note that DDO is far more balanced than D&D 3.5 at high levels. The ludicrous dominance of full-spellcasters doesn't occur in this game; but DDO is still a lot less balanced than typical multiplayer computer games.

[bryanmeerkat]

I've started the game this week and am absolutely loving it But the thing is, I have no idea how the gameplay of DDO works in the endgame. I am experienced in PnP (more then 10 years now) and in the games I've played over the years, I've hated powerplaying. So, I've created a character I would very much like to play for myself without any knowledge about state of the endgame and items in DDO and without any regard to powergaming.

I am casual player so I don't want to be forced to make a new character after months of playing but I also don't want to formulate everything. I was only thinking about an agile halfling girl who fights fast and light.

Can I survive the endgame of DDO with her? Did I even do the planning right?

In PnP if I suspect my players are power gaming I will powergame the bad guys too and everyone is happy .
If they are flavour building I wont chuck a dragon at them at level 4 .

In DDO if you build a gimpy charachter for flavour purposes the game will hand you your ass on a plate .

If you want to run around watching other people play the game for you then its ok but have a casual attitude to the game but when it comes to a build Id suggest reading other peoples builds and going from their.

[GERGE]

I checked game mechanics and other builds. I don't think I will go to raids much - maybe with real life friends sometimes, I will mostly solo with one or two hirelings and PuG. I really really like dexterity fighters so I made a new one based on what I've learned. She is based on hitting fast and precise. Criticals mostly.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Adachi Rin
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Female
(18 Fighter \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 298
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 15
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             13                    18
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence         13                    14
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    18
Bluff                -1                     2
Concentration         7                    11
Diplomacy             3                    12
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  0                     1
Hide                  3                     5
Intimidate           -1                     2
Jump                  5                    31
Listen                0                     1
Move Silently         3                     5
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     2
Spot                  3                     7
Swim                  1                     4
Tumble                4                    15
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Wizard
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Spot I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Deflect Arrows
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Improved Wizard Dilettante I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Critical
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery I
Enhancement: Half-Elf Wizard Intelligence I


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Rapier Specialization I
Enhancement: Improved Wizard Dilettante II
Enhancement: Improved Jump II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump III


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Improved Jump IV


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Blocking
Enhancement: Improved Wizard Dilettante III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Iron Will
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Scimitar Specialization II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I

Would this do as a dex fighter while soloing and doing quests with random groups? She will hit faster, her critical range is greater. Or would I have to abandon dex-based fighters and make a ranger (my second choice and a sad smiley here)?

If this build is okay, I will start it after I get access to 32-point builds with the other.

Thanks for your help =)

[Steveohio]

I can see where your build was aiming at in PNP.

Unfortunately theres a few mechanics of gameplay that differ DDO to pnp...

The main benefit of paladin 3, can easily be covered by a low level item.

One the main things people will generally want to get when multiclassing is evasion. Its singlehandedly one of the best feats in the game when you can get good saves, which most paladins have.

So figure 2 monk or 2 rogue, or 9 ranger.. I feel 2 monk gives by far the most benefit with 2 additional feats. opinions obviously vary

Also, you want to do 6/12/18 lvls if possible generally, for prestige classes..

Just noticed your 2nd build.. probably more viable as a ddo toon for sure.

Sadly though, Dex based fighters and toons in general are weaker than the corresponding str based builds.

This is do to a few reasons:

First AC is mostly irrelevant, and/or extremely hard to get to a viable, useable score. For new players, eh probably not gonna happen.

Secondly, Str does more damage, but is also generally easier to raise str via items/buffs than it is dex, so it also has a higher to-hit than dex does.

3rd, if your a dex based user, you more than likely going to use rapiers.. This has caused them to be much more expensive than any other weapon type in my experience.

Just those 3 reason above sorta disqualify dex, and it is generally looked at as weaker than str. That said, their are certainly some dex builds that are good. They are mostly relegated to halfings/monks/rogues..

[justplayingthegame]

repeat this mantra.
This is not pnp, this is not pnp, this isnot,,,

seriously though depends on how YOU play as to how this build will work.

[GERGE]

Yeah, I noticed that. I am going with a pure Shintao Monk to learn the game and earn some favor. Then I will look into possible builds.

It is very different from PnP. I mean, killing a tarrasque or raiding f*** Larloch (well, maybe not that) might be possible with the builds I've seen!!! This is a different game, a very good game but not the one I now =(

I wonder, is all Eberron setting is like this?

[hityawithastick]

Yeah, I noticed that. I am going with a pure Shintao Monk to learn the game and earn some favor. Then I will look into possible builds.

It is very different from PnP. I mean, killing a tarrasque or raiding f*** Larloch (well, maybe not that) might be possible with the builds I've seen!!! This is a different game, a very good game but not the one I now =(

I wonder, is all Eberron setting is like this?

It's not Eberron. The Eberron setting translates to 3.5 pretty well. This is an unfortunate side effect of making Dungeons and Dragons into an online computer game. Without a DM to challenge the party based on their individual weaknesses, the devs are forced to compensate with larger numbers of enemies with higher hit points. Otherwise the game would be too easy!

[ColdNapalm]

Dex based fighters aren't even viable in PnP. Before you go and call me a horrible power gamer, try this...make your favorite dex based fighter and get a group of friends to play the other iconic 4 in iconic methods. Then grab an adventure path and run through that as written. You will find that you really wont be contributing very much to the success of the party beyond the fist couple of levels. You want a dex based fighter that is viable...it's called the rogue. I am well aware that live DM can adjust games so everyone can shine...but DDO has no such capacity so it is much closer to playing an adventure path as written. And in such cases, even in PnP...there are just some non-viable choices and a dex based fighter is one of them.

The best option would be a ranger/rogue with tempest. The ranger lets you keep perception skills maxed at 1 for 1 rate and with 6 skills per level, you can reasonable keep your disable and open locks up with a modest amount of int 12-14. That way the lack of DPS made up for the fact that you can disarm traps and as such have a use to the party.

[voodoogroves]

In PNP, serious power gamers found ways to add other things to damage consistently ... Swashbuckler dips, precision damage, etc. These don't exist as readily in DDO since they are largely from splat books.


A DEX/WIS Shintao Monk is about one of the best DEX/WIS builds out there. Rangers can do a passable job as well, though may require a bit more gearing. Rogues can work as well as DEX based esp. in groups (but are quite limited while soloing).


(1) Even if you're DEX based, you need Power Attack. STR 14 after tomes minimally.
(2) The only reason to go DEX based is as an AC build as well. If you're not aiming for the gearing for a meaningful AC, all that DEX is going to waste.
(3) Power Critical is an unnecessary feat, as is Two Weapon Blocking.
(4) If you're really going DEX based, you want to do it whole-hog. Look at the numbers; if at the end of the day putting all those build points into DEX vs. STR, all levels and enhancements into DEX, etc. your DEX and STR can reach within a handful of points of each other, go STR. With fighter STR bonuses, Kensai Power Surge, you're going to probably have higher STR than DEX when you're fighting the big fights; Finesse would be a wasted feat.
(5) All of the "add DEX instead of STR to damage" TWF options out there tend to be loot tied to raids or raid-crafting. If you're not raiding, you're not getting those.


Play that monk first. Cap it. PUG some raids - it really isn't that painful. Raiding in DDO is fun and while some are stressed-out space-monkey fests, many are simply enjoyable - and that's all based on the group you randomly get into. I actually like this aspect of the game.

[Razcar]

Yeah, I noticed that. I am going with a pure Shintao Monk to learn the game and earn some favor. Then I will look into possible builds.

It is very different from PnP. I mean, killing a tarrasque or raiding f*** Larloch (well, maybe not that) might be possible with the builds I've seen!!! This is a different game, a very good game but not the one I now =(

I wonder, is all Eberron setting is like this?

You cannot come to DDO and expect the same experience as in D&D. It's the same as you cannot go see The Lord of the Rings films and expect the same experience as you have when reading the books.

Similar names, characters, main story lines, props, themes etc., yes of course. But just like film is a very different medium compared to a book - and an adaptation from one to another must take these differences into account - an MMO computer game is very different from a role-playing game.

PnP is PnP, and DDO is DDO. Enjoy each for what it is, and you will not be disappointed.

[ColdNapalm]

In PNP, serious power gamers found ways to add other things to damage consistently ... Swashbuckler dips, precision damage, etc. These don't exist as readily in DDO since they are largely from splat books.

Well the swashbuckler added int to damage...not dex so it wasn't very good for a dex based fighter actually...it was good for wizard gish builds. What you really wanted was champion of corollean which did add dex to damage on top of str. Precision damage does exist in DDO. Sneak attack is precision damage. The other main source was duelist except the rate that the duelist got it, along with one handed weapon only made it pretty much non viable. So really the only viable dex based fighters were elf champions.