epic/endgame healer FvS vs. Clr

[WarMachine]

All I ever see in epic/elite raids are clerics, I'm wondering what exactly makes them superior. My main concern is I'd like wings from FvS. I see that Clr don't have to split their stats between 3 attributes and DV helps the SP difference. Is that healing aura what is being sought? What am I missing.

[DToNE]

I believe it's more of an illusion than anything else. When it really comes down to it, I can name two primary factors.

One is the mindset between FvS and Cleric. It's getting very rare to see a capped battle cleric these days, thus it implies that less and less are being build ever since the release of Radiant Servant. Favored Soul on the other hand usually comes in flavors that don't always point to pure healing. While Favored Soul can throw out much more heals, it must be built that way specifically and more often than not you get a "Battle Favored Soul" as a result. By recent trend, there's more Battle FvS than there are Battle Clerics ratio wise, thus the slight decline of trust towards FvS.

The other factor is the fact that people subconsciously enjoy large numbers in this game. They might not make large note of it, but RS Clerics will almost always overheal without trying. FvS on the other hand can throw out powerful heals, but they don't have the slight bonus to empower heal and thus it has been much harder to fill parties to full. Subconsciously, people are more attracted towards the overheal and somewhat feel that it's much better than the "incomplete" heal. It's also been proven that you don't need enormous amounts of SP to get things done, thus they see the FvS's extremely large SP pool as something that isn't as significant as it was in the past.

Of course, these are just theories as to the recent trend with no real proven facts to support them.

[seobanio]

The main reason there are so many more clerics than fvs is that clerics are f2p and fvs are p2p with a pretty steep favor requirement.

If you build your fvs to be a healbot you've gimped your fvs. Ignore the post before mine, it is incorrect.

[phalaeo]

All I ever see in epic/elite raids are clerics, I'm wondering what exactly makes them superior. My main concern is I'd like wings from FvS. I see that Clr don't have to split their stats between 3 attributes and DV helps the SP difference. Is that healing aura what is being sought? What am I missing.

You can't DV yourself.

[sirgog]

Clerics tend to put out more overall healing (both healing per second and, due to the Aura, can sustain it longer in most circumstances).

However, Favored Souls are much, much, MUCH harder to kill, and a dead character can't heal. 10 DR, and 10 stacking Fire Resist, and 40 more HP worth of Toughness enhancements is a huge improvement. IIRC FvS's have better saves too (at least Reflex saves, which are the most important at endgame)

At the moment I prefer FvS healing to Clr healing as the main cause of party wipes is Clr/FvS death rather than SP exhaustion. This may change with future content, and doesn't even mention the other benefits of the two classes (such as melee enhancements on a FvS, or the lack of stat allocation issues on a Clr).

[Pewf]

Me, personally, I chose cleric for the radiant servant boosts to empowered healing, and cure/healing spells. Maybe if FvS got a Healing PrE, then maybe, just maybe...

[thewalex]

I have a capped cleric, which was my first character (read: adventurer build) which was respeced after the release of the RS. I went through a lot of PUGs getting him to 20. I have since leveled an evoker FvS to 20, but I joined a static group of TRs so we did most of the leveling without posting LFMs. So we start running raids and the character isn't known among the people who regularly PUG Shroud/VoD/HoX/Reaver's. Which one I'd take into a quest depends situationally. The cleric is fantastic for burst healing and his capstone is invaluable for the Abbot raid and the "red aura" on the way to VoD. The favored soul is a lot harder to kill, can solo heal the Shroud now (with sup potency VI, Amrath superior ardor VIII clickies, and a greater arcane/superior healing lore item). Which one would I prefer to take into epics and ToD (where SP conservation is more important than burst healing)? The favored soul. Both have their advantages, I'm just of the opinion that by the time most people make Favored Souls, they run with guildies or static groups, and that's why you wouldn't see them as often in LFM postings.

[TheDjinnFor]

This question seems to be brought up at least once a month. Here's a repost of an old post I made last year which outlines the essential differences in my opinion:

As healers, Clerics generally throw bigger heals because they're more likely to choose the Empower Healing feat due to their enhancements (and now the Radiant Servant boost to it). A cleric mass healing a group of >500 hp types probably won't waste a single drop. Good cleric players have no problem solo healing Shrouds if the melees can take the punishment and they pause slightly in between mass heals.

Favored Souls last a lot longer when healing, however. They can keep up a steady stream of Mass cures or spot heals for a long time. Favored Souls might grab Empower Healing but I don't know too many who do instead of something like Maximize or Empower for their BBs. High CHA clerics can mitigate some of the SP loss by DVing other healers.

As melees, Clerics can comfortably splash more levels of fighter, monk, and rogue without missing their high-level spells and because their capstone isn't that great. They can better do 2 Fighter/2 Monk/2 Rogue splashes without much sacrifice.

Favored Souls have much better damage output should they choose to go melee. They have enhancements to improve it and their capstone gives them great durability. Of course, they lose out on their capstone when they splash, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

For buffing, clerics can grab all the meaningful end-game buffs without any loss, and switch them out between quests depending on the situation. In Epic a Shield of Faith spell can save a tank an item slot, and now that Holy Aura works (supposedly) on groups a +4 resistance for everyone is nice. Last I checked FvS lose anywhere from 3 to 11 spells, depending on what you value as a divine caster and how much you splash. Some FvS will argue you lose nothing, but that's subjective and based on the player.

On the other hand, if FvS know what they need they can take it and be fine. If you're planning on doing one thing and one thing only when you cap (such as running shroud all day) you know exactly what spells you'll need and you'll be okay. On the other hand, if you do a little of everything you could find yourself lacking key spells at raids. If you want to run all the end-game raids and do a lot of solo loot runs while playing Epic you could stretch your FvS.

In terms of Damage spells (i.e. Blade Barrier), FvS are more naturally inclined to it, as they have much more SP to work with and much more durability to survive kiting things around. A cleric can mitigate some benefits if they choose to go with Empower/Maximize instead of Empower Heal, which they may often do. When insta-kills don't work, Clerics can afford to slot CC spells while FvS will more often than not go with insta-kills because they are more practical for a lot of high level play.

In a nutshell, Clerics lose less if they choose to specialize. Favored Souls are better when they specialize, but they lose a lot more versatility. Clerics are naturally more inclined to buffing and healing, while FvS are naturally more inclined to meleeing and DPS. Clerics can CC, buff, DPS (melee and spell), and heal all in one build without losing too much, but FvS generally can't.

If you're new to divines, go cleric; you'll get a mix of everything. Once you know what you like doing you can consider the FvS.

Also: inb4flamewar

[Calebro]

This question seems to be brought up at least once a month. Here's a repost of an old post I made last year which outlines the essential differences in my opinion:

I agree with some of what you said. I disagree with more of it however.

[TheDjinnFor]

I agree with some of what you said. I disagree with more of it however.

Do elaborate; I'm all for civilized discussion

[Calebro]

As healers, Clerics generally throw bigger heals because they're more likely to choose the Empower Healing feat due to their enhancements (and now the Radiant Servant boost to it). A cleric mass healing a group of >500 hp types probably won't waste a single drop. Good cleric players have no problem solo healing Shrouds if the melees can take the punishment and they pause slightly in between mass heals.

Favored Souls last a lot longer when healing, however. They can keep up a steady stream of Mass cures or spot heals for a long time. Favored Souls might grab Empower Healing but I don't know too many who do instead of something like Maximize or Empower for their BBs. High CHA clerics can mitigate some of the SP loss by DVing other healers.
Most melee focused FvS will grab Empower Heal. Taking Empower instead will also work for BB, but that's your only offensive spell. You get more mileage out of Empowered Heal.
As a FvS is more likely to be melee focused than a Cleric, they are also more feat starved. So while a Cleric might be able to fit both Empower and Empower Heal, a FvS certainly will not.
Evoker FvSs are the exception, as they'll be more likely to take Empower.

As melees, Clerics can comfortably splash more levels of fighter, monk, and rogue without missing their high-level spells and because their capstone isn't that great. They can better do 2 Fighter/2 Monk/2 Rogue splashes without much sacrifice.
Their capstone is amazing. It's one of the best in the game. That is all.

Favored Souls have much better damage output should they choose to go melee. They have enhancements to improve it and their capstone gives them great durability. Of course, they lose out on their capstone when they splash, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

For buffing, clerics can grab all the meaningful end-game buffs without any loss, and switch them out between quests depending on the situation. In Epic a Shield of Faith spell can save a tank an item slot, and now that Holy Aura works (supposedly) on groups a +4 resistance for everyone is nice. Last I checked FvS lose anywhere from 3 to 11 spells, depending on what you value as a divine caster and how much you splash. Some FvS will argue you lose nothing, but that's subjective and based on the player.

On the other hand, if FvS know what they need they can take it and be fine. If you're planning on doing one thing and one thing only when you cap (such as running shroud all day) you know exactly what spells you'll need and you'll be okay. On the other hand, if you do a little of everything you could find yourself lacking key spells at raids. If you want to run all the end-game raids and do a lot of solo loot runs while playing Epic you could stretch your FvS.

In terms of Damage spells (i.e. Blade Barrier), FvS are more naturally inclined to it, as they have much more SP to work with and much more durability to survive kiting things around. A cleric can mitigate some benefits if they choose to go with Empower/Maximize instead of Empower Heal, which they may often do. When insta-kills don't work, Clerics can afford to slot CC spells while FvS will more often than not go with insta-kills because they are more practical for a lot of high level play.
Again, with the exception of an evoker, a Cleric is more likely to have Empower, and therefore makes a better nuker.
And again, with the exception of an evoker, a FvS will likely ignore instakill effects. Their Wisdom is lower, due to multiple attribute dependency, and due to only having 2 class enhancements to their casting stat.

In a nutshell, Clerics lose less if they choose to specialize. Favored Souls are better when they specialize, but they lose a lot more versatility. Clerics are naturally more inclined to buffing and healing, while FvS are naturally more inclined to meleeing and DPS. Clerics can CC, buff, DPS (melee and spell), and heal all in one build without losing too much, but FvS generally can't.
It is my opinion that an FvS is more inclined to melee/buffing/healing. Leave DPS to the guys with the feats and the DCs.... unless you're an evoker.

If you're new to divines, go cleric; you'll get a mix of everything. Once you know what you like doing you can consider the FvS.

Also: inb4flamewar

in red

[TheDjinnFor]

Can't argue much with that I suppose. Though I would say that a solid Melee FvS is going to have a tough time fitting level 9 spells (if they can at all) and thus would still be worse than a Cleric in healing; it depends almost entirely on the content that the FvS is trying to run (which is I suppose my core criticism). Now, if a FvS is only considering splashing like 2 levels of melee I'd take the capstone survivability and BB kite-spam over a melee splash, but that's just IMO. I guess I'm just saying I can't imagine a FvS that has Emp Healing AND some kind of 18/2 Splash AND Mass Heal (and only Mass Heal) being a particularly smart play.

The post was written a year ago and I think I based it off of a post I wrote even earlier: I suppose now that every cleric is going Radiant Servant that capstone is looking more useful; my battlecleric, on the other hand, didn't have any Cha with which to use that capstone and I haven't seen it used often enough for me to notice any positive benefit.

[Calebro]

Can't argue much with that I suppose. Though I would say that a solid Melee FvS is going to have a tough time fitting level 9 spells (if they can at all) and thus would still be worse than a Cleric in healing; it depends almost entirely on the content that the FvS is trying to run (which is I suppose my core criticism). Now, if a FvS is only considering splashing like 2 levels of melee I'd take the capstone survivability and BB kite-spam over a melee splash, but that's just IMO. I guess I'm just saying I can't imagine a FvS that has Emp Healing AND some kind of 18/2 Splash AND Mass Heal (and only Mass Heal) being a particularly smart play.

The post was written a year ago and I think I based it off of a post I wrote even earlier: I suppose now that every cleric is going Radiant Servant that capstone is looking more useful; my battlecleric, on the other hand, didn't have any Cha with which to use that capstone and I haven't seen it used often enough for me to notice any positive benefit.

How does only having 1 9th level spell make him worse at healing than a cleric?
Max'd, emp heal'd cure mod and cure serious, and emp heal'd mass heal. Those three are more than enough. Sov Rune of Magic on DT for potency for the two mass cures, or an Amrath clicky. It's more then enough. Heck, you can get by without Mass Heal. I did just fine solo healing Shroud before I got Mass Heal. And I do it while beating on Harry.

As for content run: as a melee, you're helping no matter the content, and healing as well. I often don't even bother targeting anyone with my mass cures. They hit me, and all of the melee around me. I only target a specific individual if they need extra help.

FvS is the battle cleric's wet dream.

My previous post was half eaten, so I edited it back in. I saved the text because I thought it might happen. Forums were acting funny.

[LordPiglet]

Can't argue much with that I suppose. Though I would say that a solid Melee FvS is going to have a tough time fitting level 9 spells (if they can at all) and thus would still be worse than a Cleric in healing; it depends almost entirely on the content that the FvS is trying to run (which is I suppose my core criticism). Now, if a FvS is only considering splashing like 2 levels of melee I'd take the capstone survivability and BB kite-spam over a melee splash, but that's just IMO. I guess I'm just saying I can't imagine a FvS that has Emp Healing AND some kind of 18/2 Splash AND Mass Heal (and only Mass Heal) being a particularly smart play.

The post was written a year ago and I think I based it off of a post I wrote even earlier: I suppose now that every cleric is going Radiant Servant that capstone is looking more useful; my battlecleric, on the other hand, didn't have any Cha with which to use that capstone and I haven't seen it used often enough for me to notice any positive benefit.

Really, because the 2 best Lord of Blades builds on the forums don't splash. Splashing means you lose your capstone spell, and your 10 dr. Both of which are pretty valuable to me (on paper at least, I haven't hit cap yet). Unless you want evasion or special skills there's not a lot of reason to splash on a FvS.

[jwdaniels]

Can't argue much with that I suppose. Though I would say that a solid Melee FvS is going to have a tough time fitting level 9 spells (if they can at all) and thus would still be worse than a Cleric in healing; it depends almost entirely on the content that the FvS is trying to run (which is I suppose my core criticism). Now, if a FvS is only considering splashing like 2 levels of melee I'd take the capstone survivability and BB kite-spam over a melee splash, but that's just IMO. I guess I'm just saying I can't imagine a FvS that has Emp Healing AND some kind of 18/2 Splash AND Mass Heal (and only Mass Heal) being a particularly smart play.

The post was written a year ago and I think I based it off of a post I wrote even earlier: I suppose now that every cleric is going Radiant Servant that capstone is looking more useful; my battlecleric, on the other hand, didn't have any Cha with which to use that capstone and I haven't seen it used often enough for me to notice any positive benefit.

Most Favored Souls don't splash for melee - they really don't need to. There are Favored Soul splash builds, but I'd wager there are far more pure Favored Souls than splashed.

Also, what does charisma have to do with the cleric capstone? One turn attempt for a 5-minute get out of jail free card is a small price to pay, especially given that the radiant servant regenerates one turn every two minutes. I built my cleric before radiant servant and had virtually dump-statted charisma and I almost never run out of turn attempts unless I'm wantonly blasting undead with my radiant blast.

[aristarchus1000]

Favored Souls, especially melee ones that don't try to cast offensive spells, imo, make great end-game healers. I prefer them at the moment, if they are built and played right.

When you don't need the offensive spells, the spell selection is really not that bad. You get all the buffs and heals you need and more.

Any Favored Soul that plans to heal in the end-game should at least consider Empowered Healing. It's not absolutely necessary, but it will make you a better healer build.

Survivability is very key. Clerics seem to die too quickly in epics/end game if anything goes wrong. The Favored Soul can help you recover. Radiant Servant is nice, but only if the Cleric can survive the beating and the nuking spam of being close to his teammates. Most I've seen cannot. Reflex saves not high enough, no DR, no stacking resistances, lack of the extra toughness enhancements.

I agree the clerics make better splash builds since the capstone is less critical to them.

I'd recommend looking at the 2 top melee/healer builds in the Favored Soul forums, they are similar and very powerful. They melee, but they don't try to "max dps." For example, they don't pick up the THF feats. Melee is just a contribution they make when healing is not immediately necessary.

[sirgog]

How does only having 1 9th level spell make him worse at healing than a cleric?
...

Being able to raise someone at 100% hp is important in some situations; especially against epic Lailat and, to a lesser extent, Horoth.

[guikentsuori]

Honestly, I've played an FVS to cap twice, a cleric to cap 1.75 times and currently working on a TR FVS, at low levels FVS are better healing for the added sp for sure, mid levels with radiant servant clerics get much better and end game it really evens out.

When you're spamming mass heals in raids the overheal from emp is insignificant and FVS have much higher survivability, as well as a ton more mana to sustain those heals, RS really stops coming into the equation in those scenarios. They are both good at what they do, if you spec evocation/casting FVS especially you can help out with damage significantly while keeping up the heal botting power at the same time, something a cleric really do for long with the reduced mana pool. melee specced fvs can do well also although more situationally. The versatility and increased number of spells a cleric has certainly bring more utility to a group as well and this has to be a factor in the decision. Ultimately I'd say it's personal preference... at least until FVS get their prestige

Also DI is situationally very useful.. but the FVS capstone is nothing to complain about either!

[Calebro]

Also DI is situationally very useful.. but the FVS capstone is nothing to complain about either!

The level 20 DR that every favored sould gets is nothing to complain about. The individual capstones based on deity (which is that the actual capstones are) vary in usefulness.

[Phidius]

IMHO, this phenomenon is not a result of the difference between class abilities, or even the relative cost of playing the class (Turbine points/favor vs F2P)...

It's simply that the icon for FvS is just another boring, nondescript colorless blob in the party list, while the cleric's divine flame stands out like a beacon of reassurance and hope.

Blue: Wizard (possibly Pale Master, give them a chance to move away before casting Mass Deathward)
Red: Sorc
White: Healer, lets do this on Elite!!
Purplish: Either bard or rogue - if you don't hear any songs, it's probably a rogue.
Brownish: Everything else

I still feel bad about not giving the FvS a chance to roll on the Guantlets of Eternity quite simply because I didn't even notice him in the group