epic/endgame healer FvS vs. Clr

[WarMachine]

All I ever see in epic/elite raids are clerics, I'm wondering what exactly makes them superior. My main concern is I'd like wings from FvS. I see that Clr don't have to split their stats between 3 attributes and DV helps the SP difference. Is that healing aura what is being sought? What am I missing.

[DToNE]

I believe it's more of an illusion than anything else. When it really comes down to it, I can name two primary factors.

One is the mindset between FvS and Cleric. It's getting very rare to see a capped battle cleric these days, thus it implies that less and less are being build ever since the release of Radiant Servant. Favored Soul on the other hand usually comes in flavors that don't always point to pure healing. While Favored Soul can throw out much more heals, it must be built that way specifically and more often than not you get a "Battle Favored Soul" as a result. By recent trend, there's more Battle FvS than there are Battle Clerics ratio wise, thus the slight decline of trust towards FvS.

The other factor is the fact that people subconsciously enjoy large numbers in this game. They might not make large note of it, but RS Clerics will almost always overheal without trying. FvS on the other hand can throw out powerful heals, but they don't have the slight bonus to empower heal and thus it has been much harder to fill parties to full. Subconsciously, people are more attracted towards the overheal and somewhat feel that it's much better than the "incomplete" heal. It's also been proven that you don't need enormous amounts of SP to get things done, thus they see the FvS's extremely large SP pool as something that isn't as significant as it was in the past.

Of course, these are just theories as to the recent trend with no real proven facts to support them.

[seobanio]

The main reason there are so many more clerics than fvs is that clerics are f2p and fvs are p2p with a pretty steep favor requirement.

If you build your fvs to be a healbot you've gimped your fvs. Ignore the post before mine, it is incorrect.

[phalaeo]

All I ever see in epic/elite raids are clerics, I'm wondering what exactly makes them superior. My main concern is I'd like wings from FvS. I see that Clr don't have to split their stats between 3 attributes and DV helps the SP difference. Is that healing aura what is being sought? What am I missing.

You can't DV yourself.

[sirgog]

Clerics tend to put out more overall healing (both healing per second and, due to the Aura, can sustain it longer in most circumstances).

However, Favored Souls are much, much, MUCH harder to kill, and a dead character can't heal. 10 DR, and 10 stacking Fire Resist, and 40 more HP worth of Toughness enhancements is a huge improvement. IIRC FvS's have better saves too (at least Reflex saves, which are the most important at endgame)

At the moment I prefer FvS healing to Clr healing as the main cause of party wipes is Clr/FvS death rather than SP exhaustion. This may change with future content, and doesn't even mention the other benefits of the two classes (such as melee enhancements on a FvS, or the lack of stat allocation issues on a Clr).

[Pewf]

Me, personally, I chose cleric for the radiant servant boosts to empowered healing, and cure/healing spells. Maybe if FvS got a Healing PrE, then maybe, just maybe...

[thewalex]

I have a capped cleric, which was my first character (read: adventurer build) which was respeced after the release of the RS. I went through a lot of PUGs getting him to 20. I have since leveled an evoker FvS to 20, but I joined a static group of TRs so we did most of the leveling without posting LFMs. So we start running raids and the character isn't known among the people who regularly PUG Shroud/VoD/HoX/Reaver's. Which one I'd take into a quest depends situationally. The cleric is fantastic for burst healing and his capstone is invaluable for the Abbot raid and the "red aura" on the way to VoD. The favored soul is a lot harder to kill, can solo heal the Shroud now (with sup potency VI, Amrath superior ardor VIII clickies, and a greater arcane/superior healing lore item). Which one would I prefer to take into epics and ToD (where SP conservation is more important than burst healing)? The favored soul. Both have their advantages, I'm just of the opinion that by the time most people make Favored Souls, they run with guildies or static groups, and that's why you wouldn't see them as often in LFM postings.

[TheDjinnFor]

This question seems to be brought up at least once a month. Here's a repost of an old post I made last year which outlines the essential differences in my opinion:

As healers, Clerics generally throw bigger heals because they're more likely to choose the Empower Healing feat due to their enhancements (and now the Radiant Servant boost to it). A cleric mass healing a group of >500 hp types probably won't waste a single drop. Good cleric players have no problem solo healing Shrouds if the melees can take the punishment and they pause slightly in between mass heals.

Favored Souls last a lot longer when healing, however. They can keep up a steady stream of Mass cures or spot heals for a long time. Favored Souls might grab Empower Healing but I don't know too many who do instead of something like Maximize or Empower for their BBs. High CHA clerics can mitigate some of the SP loss by DVing other healers.

As melees, Clerics can comfortably splash more levels of fighter, monk, and rogue without missing their high-level spells and because their capstone isn't that great. They can better do 2 Fighter/2 Monk/2 Rogue splashes without much sacrifice.

Favored Souls have much better damage output should they choose to go melee. They have enhancements to improve it and their capstone gives them great durability. Of course, they lose out on their capstone when they splash, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

For buffing, clerics can grab all the meaningful end-game buffs without any loss, and switch them out between quests depending on the situation. In Epic a Shield of Faith spell can save a tank an item slot, and now that Holy Aura works (supposedly) on groups a +4 resistance for everyone is nice. Last I checked FvS lose anywhere from 3 to 11 spells, depending on what you value as a divine caster and how much you splash. Some FvS will argue you lose nothing, but that's subjective and based on the player.

On the other hand, if FvS know what they need they can take it and be fine. If you're planning on doing one thing and one thing only when you cap (such as running shroud all day) you know exactly what spells you'll need and you'll be okay. On the other hand, if you do a little of everything you could find yourself lacking key spells at raids. If you want to run all the end-game raids and do a lot of solo loot runs while playing Epic you could stretch your FvS.

In terms of Damage spells (i.e. Blade Barrier), FvS are more naturally inclined to it, as they have much more SP to work with and much more durability to survive kiting things around. A cleric can mitigate some benefits if they choose to go with Empower/Maximize instead of Empower Heal, which they may often do. When insta-kills don't work, Clerics can afford to slot CC spells while FvS will more often than not go with insta-kills because they are more practical for a lot of high level play.

In a nutshell, Clerics lose less if they choose to specialize. Favored Souls are better when they specialize, but they lose a lot more versatility. Clerics are naturally more inclined to buffing and healing, while FvS are naturally more inclined to meleeing and DPS. Clerics can CC, buff, DPS (melee and spell), and heal all in one build without losing too much, but FvS generally can't.

If you're new to divines, go cleric; you'll get a mix of everything. Once you know what you like doing you can consider the FvS.

Also: inb4flamewar

[Calebro]

This question seems to be brought up at least once a month. Here's a repost of an old post I made last year which outlines the essential differences in my opinion:

I agree with some of what you said. I disagree with more of it however.

[TheDjinnFor]

I agree with some of what you said. I disagree with more of it however.

Do elaborate; I'm all for civilized discussion

[Calebro]

As healers, Clerics generally throw bigger heals because they're more likely to choose the Empower Healing feat due to their enhancements (and now the Radiant Servant boost to it). A cleric mass healing a group of >500 hp types probably won't waste a single drop. Good cleric players have no problem solo healing Shrouds if the melees can take the punishment and they pause slightly in between mass heals.

Favored Souls last a lot longer when healing, however. They can keep up a steady stream of Mass cures or spot heals for a long time. Favored Souls might grab Empower Healing but I don't know too many who do instead of something like Maximize or Empower for their BBs. High CHA clerics can mitigate some of the SP loss by DVing other healers.
Most melee focused FvS will grab Empower Heal. Taking Empower instead will also work for BB, but that's your only offensive spell. You get more mileage out of Empowered Heal.
As a FvS is more likely to be melee focused than a Cleric, they are also more feat starved. So while a Cleric might be able to fit both Empower and Empower Heal, a FvS certainly will not.
Evoker FvSs are the exception, as they'll be more likely to take Empower.

As melees, Clerics can comfortably splash more levels of fighter, monk, and rogue without missing their high-level spells and because their capstone isn't that great. They can better do 2 Fighter/2 Monk/2 Rogue splashes without much sacrifice.
Their capstone is amazing. It's one of the best in the game. That is all.

Favored Souls have much better damage output should they choose to go melee. They have enhancements to improve it and their capstone gives them great durability. Of course, they lose out on their capstone when they splash, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

For buffing, clerics can grab all the meaningful end-game buffs without any loss, and switch them out between quests depending on the situation. In Epic a Shield of Faith spell can save a tank an item slot, and now that Holy Aura works (supposedly) on groups a +4 resistance for everyone is nice. Last I checked FvS lose anywhere from 3 to 11 spells, depending on what you value as a divine caster and how much you splash. Some FvS will argue you lose nothing, but that's subjective and based on the player.

On the other hand, if FvS know what they need they can take it and be fine. If you're planning on doing one thing and one thing only when you cap (such as running shroud all day) you know exactly what spells you'll need and you'll be okay. On the other hand, if you do a little of everything you could find yourself lacking key spells at raids. If you want to run all the end-game raids and do a lot of solo loot runs while playing Epic you could stretch your FvS.

In terms of Damage spells (i.e. Blade Barrier), FvS are more naturally inclined to it, as they have much more SP to work with and much more durability to survive kiting things around. A cleric can mitigate some benefits if they choose to go with Empower/Maximize instead of Empower Heal, which they may often do. When insta-kills don't work, Clerics can afford to slot CC spells while FvS will more often than not go with insta-kills because they are more practical for a lot of high level play.
Again, with the exception of an evoker, a Cleric is more likely to have Empower, and therefore makes a better nuker.
And again, with the exception of an evoker, a FvS will likely ignore instakill effects. Their Wisdom is lower, due to multiple attribute dependency, and due to only having 2 class enhancements to their casting stat.

In a nutshell, Clerics lose less if they choose to specialize. Favored Souls are better when they specialize, but they lose a lot more versatility. Clerics are naturally more inclined to buffing and healing, while FvS are naturally more inclined to meleeing and DPS. Clerics can CC, buff, DPS (melee and spell), and heal all in one build without losing too much, but FvS generally can't.
It is my opinion that an FvS is more inclined to melee/buffing/healing. Leave DPS to the guys with the feats and the DCs.... unless you're an evoker.

If you're new to divines, go cleric; you'll get a mix of everything. Once you know what you like doing you can consider the FvS.

Also: inb4flamewar

in red

[TheDjinnFor]

Can't argue much with that I suppose. Though I would say that a solid Melee FvS is going to have a tough time fitting level 9 spells (if they can at all) and thus would still be worse than a Cleric in healing; it depends almost entirely on the content that the FvS is trying to run (which is I suppose my core criticism). Now, if a FvS is only considering splashing like 2 levels of melee I'd take the capstone survivability and BB kite-spam over a melee splash, but that's just IMO. I guess I'm just saying I can't imagine a FvS that has Emp Healing AND some kind of 18/2 Splash AND Mass Heal (and only Mass Heal) being a particularly smart play.

The post was written a year ago and I think I based it off of a post I wrote even earlier: I suppose now that every cleric is going Radiant Servant that capstone is looking more useful; my battlecleric, on the other hand, didn't have any Cha with which to use that capstone and I haven't seen it used often enough for me to notice any positive benefit.

[Chette]

Most melee focused FvS will grab Empower Heal. Taking Empower instead will also work for BB, but that's your only offensive spell. You get more mileage out of Empowered Heal.
As a FvS is more likely to be melee focused than a Cleric, they are also more feat starved. So while a Cleric might be able to fit both Empower and Empower Heal, a FvS certainly will not.
Evoker FvSs are the exception, as they'll be more likely to take Empower.

I disagree with you here. Most melee focused FvS will grab maximize and quicken as their only metamagics, there isn't enough room for more. As a melee favoured soul you are likely throwing mass cures instead of mass heal due to casting time (if you're a DPS you don't want to be spending 50% of your time waving your hands). Maximize may not be as efficient as empower healing, but most melee FvS are looking for total output, not efficiency.

Their capstone is amazing. It's one of the best in the game. That is all.

Can you elaborate on this? I find it garbage except for a few places where a competent player shouldn't need it (ToD kiting, Abbot ice). It doesn't do anything to increase the abilities of the cleric, either in casting, healing or meleeing.

Again, with the exception of an evoker, a Cleric is more likely to have Empower, and therefore makes a better nuker.
And again, with the exception of an evoker, a FvS will likely ignore instakill effects. Their Wisdom is lower, due to multiple attribute dependency, and due to only having 2 class enhancements to their casting stat.

Your comparing apples to oranges here when you say "with the exception of an evoker". Offensive casting FvS make up probably 50% of favoured souls in end game (by which time you've weeded out most of the high Cha healing only characters). You are comparing a battle FvS and a casting cleric. If you compare a casting FvS and a casting cleric, the FvS is more likely to have empower as they don't need empower healing. My casting FvS has a higher DC that my casting cleric because she was able to fit in an extra spell focus by not having to take empower healing.

If you want to compare FvS and Clerics you have to compare the same builds. Battle to Battle and Caster to Caster, or it doesn't make any sense.

It is my opinion that an FvS is more inclined to melee/buffing/healing. Leave DPS to the guys with the feats and the DCs.... unless you're an evoker.

As the owner of a casting FvS, melee FvS, casting cleric, and eventually another melee cleric, I say FvS and Cleric can both do it all. A FvS can dish out the DPS just as well, probably better than a Cleric. But they have to build for it. FvS are better specialists, they have to lose more to gain more. Clerics are better generalists. They can't specialize as much, but generally don't lose much when they do.