ToD PUGing: Why Kill Sully?

[nolaureltree000]

i dont know what everyone else's experience with ToD PUGing the final fight is, but from my experience it seems to be 'a smooth run' only around 1/2 the time. not always ideal, but at least no major crisis during. 1/4 of the time one of the tanks or someone else dies causing **** to hit the fan for a moment, but somehow the group manages to pull off a completion (usually thanks to healers downing a number of pots). and 1/4 of the time it just turns into a giant mess and a complete wipe.

now what seems to be the biggest catalyst in ToD final fight wipes, is everyone's fixation with killing Sully. i dont get why it is standard practice to kill Sully in PUGs. think of how many of those wipes could be avoided if a WF kites Sully around the back, while getting repaired by an arcane. then everyone else beats on horoth till he's dead. if i was a healer in ToD, i think this is the only way id be willing to go along. almost all of the time, the group would never be able to complete if one or both healers didnt drink a number of pots to keep the group up.

and what would you give up to run the raid in this manner? a slim chance at a +4 tome dropping in the extra chest. it seems like a fair trade off for the very small chance that a +4 tome drops, considering that you gain the rings you need/trophies/completions more quickly and use much less resources overall. unless youre a multiple TR that is coming upon your toon's final build, rings/trophies/completions seem to be a much larger priority than a +4 tome.

but every time ive brought this up in a ToD PUG, ive gotten responses along the lines of 'i didnt come all this way to not kill Sully' or implications that only n00bs cant handle killing Sully in ToD. while i appreciate their sense of adventure, and while a group shouldnt have trouble killing Sully on normal, it doesnt seem like a smart style of play for PUGs. atleast not with how wiping a ToD PUG isnt that uncommon. i dont have a mic, which i think is pretty essential for leading ToD, but its getting to the point where anytime i PUG ToD, ill be leading it sans mic and only kiting Sully around.

so anyways, whats with the fixation of killing Sully in ToD PUGs?

[asphodeli]

Hmmm, I chalk it up to the standards Sarlona PUGs set for themselves, which might be a good or bad thing depending on how you view it.

[Acehole31]

Any group I lead will kill Sully, and it will be done without the healers having to chug pots like it's going out of style. The trick is to ensure the essential slots are filled with competent people who know what they're doing, and being clear + concise in instructions.

If you fill the Horoth tank slot with someone who doesn't know what they're doing, chances are they won't be able to hold aggro - Just because they're a Barbarian doesn't mean they're qualified, for instance. I probably annoy the hell out of people if I come across a name I'm not familiar with asking for a tank/healer/kiter role, but that's my responsibility as the party leader. I ask questions like "How many times have you kited?" and "What are your main weapon(s) that you use to hate tank?" and "Do you have scrolls?"

You would be surprised at the responses I get from time to time, and if I hadn't bothered to ask those questions it surely would have gone poorly indeed. I also have a practice of only accepting one or two players per run maximum who are new to ToD...Any more than that and things start to go a little pear shaped. I'm more than happy to take them along and show them what it's like, don't get me wrong, but I am also after a completion. If too many people are in the raid who aren't experienced with it and something goes wrong (two or three orthons bang out a healer suddenly for instance, or someone such as the Arcane or a healer forgets to put boots on and gets banished) then I want us to be able to recover and obtain that completion instead of wiping because the newer players panic.

Half the battle seems to be knowing exactly what is required for YOUR group to succeed.

[vyvy3369]

Once you get in about 20 completions, it's generally not worth running ToD except for the +4 Tomes. Sure, you run into the occasional person who didn't get the one particular ring they're looking for by 20, but even make it 40, and then what? I'm approaching 100 on Henry, and I think I have all of the rings I'll need for all of my TRs, so I sure won't be joining runs that aren't killing Sally.

Any PUG that doesn't plan on killing Sally should at least announce that ahead of time - you're going to get a lot of upset people if you try to spring that on them at the end.

Edit: also, you must be joining PUGs at a different time of day or something. Almost every ToD I run is in a PUG, I try to run it every 3 days, and I can't even remember the last time a run failed (other than bad luck on the shadows). I think one of the dozen or so this TR had some failure with the tank, but that seemed to have been lag related and the main tank went incap'd briefly.

[protokon]

Any group I lead will kill Sully, and it will be done without the healers having to chug pots like it's going out of style. The trick is to ensure the essential slots are filled with competent people who know what they're doing, and being clear + concise in instructions.

<snip>

this. 2 appropriate tanks, 1 light monk, 2 healers and you can pretty much own suulo without using any pots every time.

There's no reason not to kill suulo unless you are impatient / incompetent and putting together an appropriate group.

[moops]

All my TODS will always kill sulu--its a nice chunk of XP for 2 mins work for all the TRS--ive seen 2+4 tomes drop, and gotten many large ingreds, and I dont run this a ton.

Failed TODs come down to leadership IMHO as well as people actually listening. . .

Many leaders assume that a Barb makes the best tank regardless of actual build and Gear and player skill, as well as WF tank being the best for everything regardless of actual build and gear and player skill, and it simply does not work that way.

Also Ive seen pug TODs fail because they rely on a Light monk, instead of using a strategy or gear that keeps both your healers from getting stunned. First thing all my healers did was go out and get a Mantle, even on Elite, Ive never used all charges. If I know that both healers do not have a mantle, then I will adjust strategy.

When I lead a TOD and I know Ill be pugging a bunch of spots, Im also sure to have a Horoth and Sulu tank first that I actually know, or I won't even run it.

MY healers avoid LFMS that are looking for main tanks as well as those filled with all members from one guild who apparently don't want to heal their own guildies because they are mega manasponges.

In most runs I lead, we could get away with one Divine as its rare that both healers use more than half their sp for healing--most of us now use our SP for DPS or to kite orthons. . .

All in all, sometimes stuff happens, like--main tanks getting banished--which recovering from one isnt so bad and not taxing to resources. Ive only lead one part 3 run that I could not recover from, and it was just a series of things going wrong. Even death is not that bad, 99% of the player base now at least has decent weapons--on a normal run you could kill Horoth in less than 90 seconds with just about any group.

[sirgog]

People kill Suulo for the 25/50/75% chance (n/h/e) at Large Shroud mats and the 0.12/0.24/0.36% chance at +4 tomes in Suulo's chest. (Horoth has a 0.27/0.33/0.39% chance at tomes).

Norm + Suulo is easier and more rewarding than Hard without Suulo.
Hard + Suulo is easier, and more rewarding, than Elite without Suulo.

The only real reasons to run without Suulo is if either the group isn't strong enough to beat Norm + Suulo, or if a key person is banished, or if running a high difficulty for favor or just for the experience (and I don't mean XP) of it.

[Nospheratus]

Any PUG that doesn't plan on killing Sally should at least announce that ahead of time - you're going to get a lot of upset people if you try to spring that on them at the end.

In my opinion it's not that linear!.. In PUG groups there is no way to determine if the group is up to the task before finishing part 2. In some, you can only really see that in the first part of beating horroth.

People kill Suulo for the 25/50/75% chance (n/h/e) at Large Shroud mats and the 0.12/0.24/0.36% chance at +4 tomes in Suulo's chest. (Horoth has a 0.27/0.33/0.39% chance at tomes).

Norm + Suulo is easier and more rewarding than Hard without Suulo.
Hard + Suulo is easier, and more rewarding, than Elite without Suulo.

The only real reasons to run without Suulo is if either the group isn't strong enough to beat Norm + Suulo, or if a key person is banished, or if running a high difficulty for favor or just for the experience (and I don't mean XP) of it.

In the many runs I have been in, including killing suulo and even elite, I have never seen any +4 tome in suulo's chest, but I have already seen 2 +4 tomes in horroth's chest in a normal run in which we killed suulo. The only +4 tomes I have seen in ToD were in horroth's chest after killing suulo.

[sirgog]

In the many runs I have been in, including killing suulo and even elite, I have never seen any +4 tome in suulo's chest, but I have already seen 2 +4 tomes in horroth's chest in a normal run in which we killed suulo. The only +4 tomes I have seen in ToD were in horroth's chest after killing suulo.

I've personally seen more in Suulo's chest than Horoth's, but still a statistically insignificant number (3 in Suulo's, 1 in Horoth's). The drop rate figures are from a reliable source, although they might be out of date.

[k1ngp1n]

Unfortunately the AC tank has become 'not the cool thing' and people always want to be 'the one holding aggo cuz I have more dips yo!' <-- quote from in-game. Yet an AC tank makes that raid such an easy loot run its unbelievable. Horc Barbs holding Horoth = THE SUCK. I don't care about your DPS when holding him. My pesky little elf ranger can hold him with DPS and has enough HP to survive. Big HP and DPS doesn't mean you still aren't a mana sponge.

And Sully is a piece of cake - just intim him and stick a shield in front of you (our guild is using a human sorcerer for this lately). The key element to pugging this raid is having a few key players who understand the mechanics well and are able to react accordingly. This is not common amongst any of the 'pug guilds' that I have seen lately. I did have a little glimmer of hope from one pugger a few days ago, but then he beat me on a ring roll so BLAH! NEVER AGAIN!

[grodon9999]

Unfortunately the AC tank has become 'not the cool thing' and people always want to be 'the one holding aggo cuz I have more dips yo!' <-- quote from in-game. Yet an AC tank makes that raid such an easy loot run its unbelievable. Horc Barbs holding Horoth = THE SUCK. I don't care about your DPS when holding him. My pesky little elf ranger can hold him with DPS and has enough HP to survive. Big HP and DPS doesn't mean you still aren't a mana sponge.

Yes and no. Horc barb with no healing amp is teh suck, but once they get some gear for this it's really not that bad with two guys tossing scrolls. Your elf ranger dies on a disintegrate which is way too risky.

And Sully is a piece of cake - just intim him and stick a shield in front of you (our guild is using a human sorcerer for this lately). The key element to pugging this raid is having a few key players who understand the mechanics well and are able to react accordingly. This is not common amongst any of the 'pug guilds' that I have seen lately. I did have a little glimmer of hope from one pugger a few days ago, but then he beat me on a ring roll so BLAH! NEVER AGAIN!

He's a pain on elite but that's about it.

[k1ngp1n]

Your elf ranger dies on a disintegrate which is way too risky.

No, actually, she does not. When tanking Horoth I run her up to 640hp.

Horcs who use amp are indeed sexy - they are few and far between. Luckily I have on in guild so we use him a lot too.

[grodon9999]

When I lead a TOD and I know Ill be pugging a bunch of spots, Im also sure to have a Horoth and Sulu tank first that I actually know, or I won't even run it.

That's the key . . .

[grodon9999]

No, actually, she does not. When tanking Horoth I run her up to 660hp.

I'm going to have to insist on you breaking that down. My Ranger can get that but it requires double-madstone (which is kinda hard to get when you have to wear different boots). it's the reason why I build my 700+ HP fighter, I wanted to tank Horoth.

[k1ngp1n]

I'm going to have to insist on you breaking that down.

Of course.

She has 523 standing:

Key elements: 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter, 16 Starting Con, 2 Toughness feats, +2 Con tome. (I have my epic envenomed cloak done, but I need my Belt of the Mroranon before I can use it. When I finish that I'm going to drop the second toughness so HP will stay the same [well, drop by 2].)

20 Base
144 Ranger
20 Fighter
10 Fighter Toughness
20 Racial Toughness
10 Draconic
44 Toughness Feats
160 CON (26 CON - 16 Base, 2 tome, 2 exceptional, 6 item)
45 Shroud Item
20 Toughness Item
30 GFL
------
523 Standing
20 Rage
40 Single Madstone
20 Store Pot (If she's tanking Horoth, I use one :P)
----
603 Sustainable buffs
40 (either double madstone or Yugo pot)
----
643

Theoretically she touches 683 with yugo and double. Hopefully I'll pull a +4 CON tome sometime to squeak a last extra 20.

If Ily gets stuck with tanking, for the first part I double madstone, no yugo. When DPS peels off, I hit the yugo pot (at that point the 5% DPS loss isn't very important - the rest of the dps coming over will make that up in a few seconds). Not to say its an ideal setup, but if she is being asked to tank, that's how I do it (and have done it successfully several times). I have to have this setup ready because, in any pug if the main tank goes down, invariably Horoth turns and burns right onto her. Lately to avoid that I've taken power attack off when beating on him to try and get him to flip to a barb or something. It works sometimes.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Why wouldn't you kil Sulu for a free chest? He's not hard to kill.

SOP in most groups is one DPS type keeps Big Red busy while the rest beat down Sulu. Sulu is an easy beat down, VoD style. One melee keeps his agro (easiest with AC tank, second easiest with WF tank) and everyone else beats from behind. Very little healing required. Sulu dies, you finish Big Red off.

There is no reason not to kill Sulu unless you group REALLY sucks for DPS or you have only a single cleric/fvs (and even the, if you go with WF lead tanks and an extra wiz/sorc you are fine).

[Pallol_One-Eye]

What is the Intim needed to hold Sully's interest easily?

I'm asking as I am thinking of doing this on my Sorc to help out on guild runs. I can easily get her to 450 HP and presently have a 45 Intim. Would this be sufficient?

And yes, this is a real question. Since I TRd her, she only has 2 ToDs under her belt. I think this "may be" a much more efficient use for her, unless the Horoth tank is a WF, in which case I become primary healer by default.

Thanks in advance.

[grodon9999]

Of course.

She has 523 standing:

Key elements: 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter, 16 Starting Con, 2 Toughness feats, +2 Con tome. (I have my epic envenomed cloak done, but I need my Belt of the Mroranon before I can use it. When I finish that I'm going to drop the second toughness so HP will stay the same [well, drop by 2].)

20 Base
144 Ranger
20 Fighter
10 Fighter Toughness
20 Racial Toughness
10 Draconic
44 Toughness Feats
160 CON (26 CON - 16 Base, 2 tome, 2 exceptional, 6 item)
45 Shroud Item
20 Toughness Item
30 GFL
------
523 Standing
20 Rage
40 Single Madstone
20 Store Pot (If she's tanking Horoth, I use one :P)
----
603 Sustainable buffs
40 (either double madstone or Yugo pot)
----
643

Theoretically she touches 683 with yugo and double. Hopefully I'll pull a +4 CON tome sometime to squeak a last extra 20.

If Ily gets stuck with tanking, for the first part I double madstone, no yugo. When DPS peels off, I hit the yugo pot (at that point the 5% DPS loss isn't very important - the rest of the dps coming over will make that up in a few seconds). Not to say its an ideal setup, but if she is being asked to tank, that's how I do it (and have done it successfully several times). I have to have this setup ready because, in any pug if the main tank goes down, invariably Horoth turns and burns right onto her. Lately to avoid that I've taken power attack off when beating on him to try and get him to flip to a barb or something. It works sometimes.

On a no-AC toon that's still a little light for even normal.

[k1ngp1n]

What is the Intim needed to hold Sully's interest easily?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=245254

I think the entry on Sully is incorrect - I believe it is actually 60, but I cannot confirm that.

[k1ngp1n]

On a no-AC toon that's still a little light for even normal.

Yes. I said it was not ideal, but could be done. Three of her last ten completions were with her going mano-a-mano on Horoth.