Ninja Spy III

[jkm]

Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.

no, the comparison should be between assassin and ninja spy. assassin gives d6 per tier, ninja escalates. this is the same problem that happened when dwarven toughness escalated (and then was nerfed).

[Soleran]

no, the comparison should be between assassin and ninja spy. assassin gives d6 per tier, ninja escalates. this is the same problem that happened when dwarven toughness escalated (and then was nerfed).

Sure :

Assassin 1

Grants 1 to 6 additional sneak attack damage
plus the poison abilities

Ninja Spy 1

gain 1 to 6 sneak attack damage as if you were a rogue.
plus shadowfade.

Assassin 2

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 2 to 12)

Ninja Spy 2

additional 2 to 12 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18 sneak attack damage)

Assassin 3

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18)

Ninja Spy 3

Who knows

Assassin also grants vorpal hits and instant death to mobs when hit from a sneak attack ninja spy effectively in combat provides shadowfade "You can expend ki to enter shadow form, becoming invisible and partially incorporeal" so 25% miss chance and invis.

In combat situations the Assassin owns the monk for abilities, if the monk were to recieve more SA and something regarding shortswords then the Assassin still owns the monk for combat abilities as SA is only done in sitations where no one has aggro in a held/stunned postition. The sum of the pre isn't in SA damage alone and the Rogue after pre tier 1 wins.

[jkm]

Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.

you keep getting stuck on class to class comparisons (even though you left out all the monk abilities). look at similar class PrE's. since ninja's are rogue like, they shouldn't be far and away better than the rogue ones. otherwise they'll have to revisit the rogue PrE's for the 4th time.

[jkm]

Sure :

Assassin 1

Grants 1 to 6 additional sneak attack damage
plus the poison abilities

Ninja Spy 1

gain 1 to 6 sneak attack damage as if you were a rogue.
plus shadowfade.

Assassin 2

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 2 to 12)

Ninja Spy 2

additional 2 to 12 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18 sneak attack damage)

Assassin 3

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18)

Ninja Spy 3

Who knows

Assassin also grants vorpal hits and instant death to mobs when hit from a sneak attack ninja spy effectively in combat provides shadowfade "You can expend ki to enter shadow form, becoming invisible and partially incorporeal" so 25% miss chance and invis.

In combat situations the Assassin owns the monk for abilities, if the monk were to recieve more SA and something regarding shortswords then the Assassin still owns the monk for combat abilities as SA is only done in sitations where no one has aggro in a held/stunned postition.

poisons are useless, the death attack is nigh useless, the vorpal attack doesn't work in epic. thus it comes down to sneak attack. if ninja is 1d6 per tier plus a death attack at the 3rd tier (which is blocked by deathward) then the 2 are practically the same.

[Soleran]

poisons are useless, the death attack is nigh useless, the vorpal attack doesn't work in epic. thus it comes down to sneak attack. if ninja is 1d6 per tier plus a death attack at the 3rd tier (which is blocked by deathward) then the 2 are practically the same.

Now you're putting alot of buts in your discussion that has nothing to do with the entire game, rather a small part of the game, guess what is stopped by deathward also, TOD so there we have it.

That's hardly imbalanced seeing as rogues can drop some picks and go x4 crit and monks still use x2 in epics. Since you are wanting to make this more then just pre vs pre now pre vs pre and situations you are looking to nitpick.

If thats the case rogues still get 4d6 sa capstone, 12 sa vs enhancements and 30% haste that stacks with spell haste and 10% opportunity to bypass fort vs monk passive ki regen and 10 dr (hello no dps boost from monk capstone to speak of its like 2 shadowfades a minute which does no dps.)

[Bodic]

and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.

the whole of it is you want to argue that monk needs more than a rogue when it comes to the SA ability that is a rogues PRIMARY class feature.

Monks are better than rogues in so many ways you want to steal the show on what they have that a monk doesnt

[jkm]

Now you're putting alot of buts in your discussion that has nothing to do with the entire game, rather a small part of the game, guess what is stopped by deathward also, TOD so there we have it.

That's hardly imbalanced seeing as rogues can drop some picks and go x4 crit and monks still use x2 in epics. Since you are wanting to make this more then just pre vs pre now pre vs pre and situations you are looking to nitpick.

If thats the case rogues still get 4d6 sa capstone, 12 sa vs enhancements and 30% haste that stacks with spell haste and 10% opportunity to bypass fort vs monk passive ki regen and 10 dr (hello no dps boost from monk capstone to speak of its like 2 shadowfades a minute which does no dps.)

lets see you are comparing 6-7 18.8 second clickies vs 15% static unarmed attack speed boost? seriously?

[Soleran]

lets see you are comparing 6-7 18.8 second clickies vs 15% static unarmed attack speed boost? seriously?

93.2 (unarmed)attacks vs 86.7 (twf weapons)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ht=swing+speed

The proof doesn't fall to me when you are the one saying it will unbalance things, you have to justify your position. Rogues get 30% haste that stacks with 15% haste, monks have nothing resembling that anywhere.

Monks and rogues don't generally solo epics as per your discussion earlier to justify your position so it's a strawman to attempt to stand on a position arguing it does.

[~Tago_Bane]

and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.

you talking about the shintao ability? cause the dark monk finisher is a fort save that no boss will fail *or very very few*.

[Ereshkigal]

Well, if you look at the Ninja class in the Complete Adventurer, from pnp d&d, it looks like they drew a lot of the stuff so far from it.

Some other features that they could take from that class could be:

more sneak attack ( this class had 9d6 at 20, but had 6d6 by 12 so...)
50% concealment clicky
hide-in-plain-sight
true seeing
poison usage
shadow-walk
ghost-touch effect applied to all attacks
more bonuses to jump & tumble


also the ninja-spy counted a kukri as a weapon they could use. that 18-20 crit would be nice now wouldn't it

[Gulnar13]

and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.

the whole of it is you want to argue that monk needs more than a rogue when it comes to the SA ability that is a rogues PRIMARY class feature.

Monks are better than rogues in so many ways you want to steal the show on what they have that a monk doesnt

Too bad we're all talking about ninja spy here, and not about Mr. Shintao. Mixing up classes (or pres) is just a sign that you don't know too well what you're talking about. And the dark-dark-dark inisher is simply impossible to land on anything past normal vale trash.

[DethTrip]

12. DDoor is good.
13. Solid Fog? or Obscuring Mist?

How about combining this? Call it Smoke Bomb, and have a cool graphic as you teleport back to the entrance.

I thought about this but the problem is that the mist would be left behind and of little use when you are back at the beginning of the quest.

Well, if you look at the Ninja class in the Complete Adventurer, from pnp d&d, it looks like they drew a lot of the stuff so far from it.

Some other features that they could take from that class could be:

more sneak attack ( this class had 9d6 at 20, but had 6d6 by 12 so...)
50% concealment clicky
hide-in-plain-sight
true seeing
poison usage
shadow-walk
ghost-touch effect applied to all attacks
more bonuses to jump & tumble


also the ninja-spy counted a kukri as a weapon they could use. that 18-20 crit would be nice now wouldn't it

So my idea of 7d6 sneak attack is actually lower than pnp. I still hold fast to my opinion that a ninja should be as deadly as ANY rogue.

The Greater Shadow Fade idea is pretty close. Of course the main differences is that concealment doesn't stack with blur or displacement and would not help against bosses with true seeing. I would still like to see 50% incorporeality. And it stacking with displacement would NOT give 100% miss chance. I'm pretty sure each has a separate check. It could be argued as being overpowered so testing would have to be done but the idea is quite similar to pnp.

Can you elaborate on how the hide-in-plain-sight ability works and how you might see it adapted to DDO?

True seeing and ghost touch are nice. For those dumping their tharnes goggles and spectral gloves, this would be very helpful.

The kukri is an interesting idea. It even sounds more like a ninja weapon than a shortsword.

[Calebro]

So my idea of 7d6 sneak attack is actually lower than pnp. I still hold fast to my opinion that a ninja should be as deadly as ANY rogue.

Wrong.
I repeat: The Ninja Spy is not from the Complete Adventurer. That was the Ninja base class. The Ninja Spy Prestige Class was from Oriental Adventures. Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over the course of it's progression, which is less than half of what you're asking.

[DethTrip]

Wrong.
I repeat: The Ninja Spy is not from the Complete Adventurer. That was the Ninja base class. The Ninja Spy Prestige Class was from Oriental Adventures. Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over the course of it's progression, which is less than half of what you're asking.

I apologize. I'm not familiar with pnp ninjas. I was going by what another posted. Regardless, my opinion still is that a ninja should sneak attack as well as an assassin because a ninja is an assassin, just a different type. That's just my opinion. Some want more sa, some want less. It's up to the devs to figure out how they want to balance things. I am simply trying to provide ideas. They will test and determine what the final product is. They know they are never going to make everyone happy. They take flack for everything they do. That's why they get paid the big bucks =-D

[Calebro]

They know they are never going to make everyone happy. They take flack for everything they do. That's why they get paid the big bucks =-D

Their job is not to make everyone happy. Their job is to create a balanced game, which most of this thread runs counter to.

[Bodic]

And the dark-dark-dark finisher is simply possible to land on anything

FIXED

I was there to clarify an available ability of a DARK MONK its there it can be used its up to you to use it in an effective manner, and if I can/did land it on a lvl20TR WF wiz in PvP it can be used.

[DethTrip]

Their job is not to make everyone happy. Their job is to create a balanced game, which most of this thread runs counter to.

Nah, you see it all wrong. This thread is about creating ideas for the ninja spy pre. The ideas will hopefully be read by the devs and they will determine how to best implement them in a balanced fashion. The amount of sa damage has been hotly contested but that doesn't mean the thread is against game balance. It just means people have a difference of opinion.

[Bodic]

Would someone reading this thread be so kind as to link the NINJA SPY PrC from the Oriental Adventures. there is a base to work and cut away from as you understand you dont get near all of the abilities the fact that an Assassin has no BLUE bar or Spell like abilities is fact.
to the DDOR,FOM, & GREATER INVIS(game breaker so I understand) among others that an assassin doesnt receive.

[LittleM]

Ninja Spy III:
+2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently
+1d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +4d6). You move an additional 10% faster while sneaking
increases the critical multiplier of your shortswords by 1

That would be my sugestion.

[Calebro]

Would someone reading this thread be so kind as to link the NINJA SPY PrC from the Oriental Adventures. there is a base to work and cut away from as you understand you dont get near all of the abilities the fact that an Assassin has no BLUE bar or Spell like abilities is fact.
to the DDOR,FOM, & GREATER INVIS(game breaker so I understand) among others that an assassin doesnt receive.

Ninja Spy isn't OGC, so we can't describe it in detail, and any link would be a violation of the ToS as no legal link exists.

In short:
A Ninja Spy required Dodge, and earliest admittance was at level 8.
Ninja Spy used the monk's BaB progression and saves progression.
Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over it's progression, and received a water walking ability at level 5 (CL 13, we have it at 12). Ninja Spy also received additional weapon proficiencies, one of which was the ninja-to (short sword), and Hide in Plain Sight (here improved to shadow fade).
Beyond that, most of a Ninja Spy's abilities duplicated a monk's, and thus continuing the monk's basic abilities in addition to the extras (which normally doesn't happen in PrCs. You normally give up progressing your base abilities to gain different ones instead), with the exception of a few things that do not exist in DDO (such as the ability to alter his appearance).

This is the reason that t3 is difficult. They already have everything from the PnP counterpart by t2. Had they simply made t2 1d6 instead of 2d6, they would need only to add a third d6 and another small addition for t3. By adding 2d6 at t3, they screwed it up and now have to do something unique.... but they need to do it without breaking it.

As for DDoor.... that's *exactly* what abundant step is in PnP, so you already have that ability in as close an approximation as you'll probably get.

edit:
To be perfectly honest, they should remove the lvl 9 reqs for ToD and make THAT the t3 ninja spy ability.