Ninja Spy III

[Bodic]

I'm still waiting to hear how monks are more survivable than rogues.

natural non item/ehancement
1.HP
2.Saves
3.DR
4.Immunities
5.DR breaking
6.Attack/Movement speed

[Requiro]

(...)
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
(...)

Idk about others, but I really don’t understand why Rogue who don’t want to improve his unique ability (and refuse to use it) should be still better then Monk who sacrifice a lot (like ugly face.. )to be master of the shadow?

[waterboytkd]

natural non item/ehancement
1.HP
2.Saves
3.DR
4.Immunities
5.DR breaking
6.Attack/Movement speed

Sure, without gear or enhancements, that's true (though not sure how the last 2 really make one more survivable; does the Barb become more survivable when he makes a MinII maul?).

BUT, I'm also going to say it's misleading to ignore gear and items and definitely enhancements. Have you ever played a character without gear or enhancements? Those play a massive role in your character's abilities. And as soon as you consider gear, a rogue gains a lot of survivability via UMD.

Rogues are nowhere near as one-dimensional as some have argued in this thread. And I've got to be done with this thread, now. It's going nowhere fast, and just raising my blood pressure.

[Requiro]

6.(...)Movement speed

(...)though not sure how the last 2 really make one more survivable(...)

You can run away faster then others if you see big ugly monster coming to you

[Blank_Zero]

5.DR breaking

Not on a Ninja Spy.

[Bodic]

adamantine/lawful fist so yes DR breaking

[BlackSteel]

I'm not understanding the relevance of comparing a rogue who refuses to specialize in sneak damage (no enhancements, no capstone, no assassin, no halfling) versus a monk that does specialize in it (ninja spy & half elf).

[Ganak]

Poison use, gaseous form, blindsight, always sneaky, ethereal jaunt.

[DethTrip]

I was hoping for more ideas than complaining but this is kinda what I expected. There are going to be racial and class overlap in this game. Happens a lot. Sorc, Wiz, and Bard. Cleric, Favored Soul, Ranger, Bard and Paladin. Monk, Ranger, and Rogue. Half Orc and Warforged. Half Elf and Human. Etc... They all have skills, feats and/or enhancements that cross. Can a wizard that takes all the archmage and energy enhancements approach the spell points of a sorc that takes none? Sure. But they spend a lot of APs on enhancements to do so.

Now you have some crossover with monks and rogues with sneak attack. Why is it off base to think a ninja could sneak attack close to as well as a rogue? I honestly think they should sneak attack at least as well. Especially if you are spending a bunch of APs to do so. I still believe 7d6 sneak attack is well within reason and should potentially be higher. The complaint of a proposed helf ninja spy III monk being able to get near or equal a capped rogue with the ROGUE dilly is a poor complaint since the reason they get the extra 3d6 SA is because they are considered part rogue!! It has nothing to do with a monk.

Some of you came up with some nice ideas. Thanks for trying to keep things on track.

I do not like the ideas of doing anything with short swords. I personally would like to see that part of the pre removed for something more useful and relevant. I would say add shuriken abilities instead. I can picture a shuriken hitting a troll in the eye and it falling to the ground dead. Maybe make a special shuriken instant death type attack. That is very interesting and sounds like a lot of fun.

I love the energy drain idea. Maybe when in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade if they do not implement greater shadow fade), your unarmed critical strikes drain 1-3 levels, like the woowoo sticks. It's an existing ability that you would think wouldn't be too hard to implement. Picture shadow fade as a negative energy field around you that drains their life force on critical strikes.

I also like the idea for a longer shadow fade, if they do not create a greater shadow fade. 1 minute is way too short.

Adding to the critical multiplier and/or range is a nice idea. This only adds more dps and not much flavor though, but I like dps =-D

I LOVE the ddoor idea. Make it work like the potions you drink in the birthday event. You click on the skill, which costs ki of course, and it ddoors you back to the beginning of the quest. Excellent idea that really goes along with the ninja imo.

Another interesting idea is creating a mist. You see it in movies where they throw the explosive ball on the ground creating a mist and then they disappear. Would be kinda cool.

I really appreciate the replies that are hopefully giving the devs enough interesting ideas to bring ninja spy III to life. I will add them to the OP. Keep the ideas rolling.

[Blank_Zero]

I have a few suggestions for ninja spy III. Any one or combination of these would be great.

1. Add another 4d6 sneak attack damage.
2. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death.
3. Add wisdom modifier to damage.
4. +1 enhanced ki generation.
5. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm.
6. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes).
7. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target.
8. Replace short swords on spy II with shuriken abilities.
9. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade)
11. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit.
12. Add a ddoor ki skill.
13. Add a mist creating ki skill.

And please fix the TOD ring sets! Make the ninja spy set do something cool and relevant.

I will try to think up some others. If you have some non-abusive on topic suggestions, please feel free to reply. Thanks.

1. 3d6 is plenty for NS3 adding
2. Reduced to 6 seconds would be a bit OP, but awesome =D
3. WIS to dmg mod? Awesome thought
4. +1 when sneaking? or all the time?
5. Yes
6. I wouldn't mind the 1 minute if I could stay invised for longer or stay stealthed through doors, etc.
7. A little OP, considering Assassin 3 Rogues only get this with ToD set.
8. Don't replace, just add Shurikens in as well.
9. Vorpal Shuriken? Give a bit more on this maybe?
10. Definitely
11. Increased Multiplier is ok, but increasing threat? How about decrease?
12. DDoor is good.
13. Solid Fog? or Obscuring Mist?

I LOVE the ddoor idea. Make it work like the potions you drink in the birthday event. You click on the skill, which costs ki of course, and it ddoors you back to the beginning of the quest. Excellent idea that really goes along with the ninja imo.

AND

Another interesting idea is creating a mist. You see it in movies where they throw the explosive ball on the ground creating a mist and then they disappear. Would be kinda cool.

How about combining this? Call it Smoke Bomb, and have a cool graphic as you teleport back to the entrance.

[jkm]

Idk about others, but I really don’t understand why Rogue who don’t want to improve his unique ability (and refuse to use it) should be still better then Monk who sacrifice a lot (like ugly face.. )to be master of the shadow?

uh, how about you sacrafice 2 prestige classes? that is the point of calebro's post. he's comparing a non-assassin to your 6d6 sneak attack.

now lets look closely at the ROGUE sneak attack prestige class assassin

oh wait, we just got 1d6 per tier when they INTRODUCED ninja spy. in other words, ninja spy in 2 levels has the same sneak attack as assassin in 3.

if you can't see that 6d6 will mean a total revamping of the 3 rogue PrE's then you are blind as a bat. i want Eladrin working on new PrEs not constantly having to go back and fix others because he overpowered a comparable one in a different class.

[jkm]

Now you have some crossover with monks and rogues with sneak attack. Why is it off base to think a ninja could sneak attack close to as well as a rogue? I honestly think they should sneak attack at least as well. Especially if you are spending a bunch of APs to do so. I still believe 7d6 sneak attack is well within reason and should potentially be higher. The complaint of a proposed helf ninja spy III monk being able to get near or equal a capped rogue with the ROGUE dilly is a poor complaint since the reason they get the extra 3d6 SA is because they are considered part rogue!! It has nothing to do with a monk.

6d6 sneak attack damage would be the equivalent of 20 monk/11 rogue. now compare this with an assassin who gets 3d6 sneak attack for an equivalence of 25 rogue.

do you see where the problem is here? so don't you think that 1d6 per tier would seem right at 20 monk/5 rogue?


assassin 3 gets 3d6 sneak attack and 3 abilities that don't work on a ton of mobs in end game.

ninja spy 3 would get 6d6 sneak attack and at least 1 ability (shadow fade) that would work at end game.

and yes, i have both a rogue and a ToD dark monk.

[Calebro]

and yes, i have both a rogue and a ToD dark monk.

Give it up dude.
Robi's last response made me realize that they were never going to listen to reason.

I am sorry that you have an overly simplistic view of game design. A class is the some total of its abilities, and can not be defined by one individual ability.

The sum total of it's abilities?
You do realize that we're talking about the sum totals of a monks' abilities vs. the sum totals of a rogue's abilities, don't you? Monk's get WAY more abilities than rogues do. To give them a LARGE portion of a rogue's ability is exactly the problem that I'm speaking of.

But you guys are never going to see that, as evidenced by the edited list. Most of the items listed there would be OP for tier three by themselves when taken into consideration with what already exists, and you'll undoubtedly be asking for more than one.
It's "I want, I want, I want" with no thought of consequence as to how that will affect the balance of the class.

I'm finished commenting in this thread. I'll just watch, shake my head, and giggle to myself.

[BlackSteel]

what does a halfling rogue compared to a half elf ninja look like? comparing a butt knaked rogue to a highly specialized ninja doesnt make any sense.

the specced halfling is what? 16d6 + 22 at cap? versus 9d6 of the H-E ninja spy? nope not seeing a problem here. Both the PrE and the racial are supposed to mimic a rogue's abilities, and the monk is still getting less than half of what the rogue is. Sure, its only agaisnt the halfling, but everyone is up in arms about the half elf monk as well.

[DevHead]

Extra sneak dice will be nice. I'm definitely in favor or using the Wis mod for damage. I'd like to see a passive ability that decreases hate so I can actually keep using my SA when I drop a ToD.

I've found the shortsword from the pirate event particularly useful, and they have their uses.

And as for walking on water...I love it. You're also supposed to be able to run across lava, but it's still rather glitchy since it doesn't work on all water/lava surfaces. Regardless, I've found it useful at times.

[Shuleagh]

Speaking as someone who TR'ed from a barb to a monk because monks are so good. Its pretty much a done deal that ninja spy 3 will be +3d6 sneak atk and a random buff. The random buff won't be amazing. It might deal with shortswords again. Expecting it to be anything more is setting yourself up for a letdown.

As far as Ninja Spy having a lot of sneak attack. Duh? Its a ninja. Ninjas and rogues have a whole hell of a lot in common so its to be expected.

[jkm]

what does a halfling rogue compared to a half elf ninja look like? comparing a butt knaked rogue to a highly specialized ninja doesnt make any sense.

the specced halfling is what? 16d6 + 22 at cap? versus 9d6 of the H-E ninja spy? nope not seeing a problem here. Both the PrE and the racial are supposed to mimic a rogue's abilities, and the monk is still getting less than half of what the rogue is. Sure, its only agaisnt the halfling, but everyone is up in arms about the half elf monk as well.

you'd have roughly 1/2 the sneak attack damage of a full blown halfling (assuming 218 and 262 are right) [wind stance IV and opportunist included]

218 * (3.5 * 17 + 18 [HG4]) * 1.03 = 17850.93
262 * (3.5 * 6 + 8 [HG4]) * 1.10 = 8357.8
262 * (3.5 * 9) * 1.10 = 9078.3

seriously, don't you think that is just a little overpowered?

the 1/2 elf is roughly equivalent to a 20th level rogue with cheat death and 2 ranks of sneak attack training and just slightly under a 20th level acrobat with the 4d6 capstone (and no opportunist).

[jkm]

Speaking as someone who TR'ed from a barb to a monk because monks are so good. Its pretty much a done deal that ninja spy 3 will be +3d6 sneak atk and a random buff. The random buff won't be amazing. It might deal with shortswords again. Expecting it to be anything more is setting yourself up for a letdown.

As far as Ninja Spy having a lot of sneak attack. Duh? Its a ninja. Ninjas and rogues have a whole hell of a lot in common so its to be expected.

all right then, this is how we handle this. the sneak attacks work ONLY with shortswords. then you can have your 6d6 because it would be balanced.

[nebogloee]

all right then, this is how we handle this. the sneak attacks work ONLY with shortswords. then you can have your 6d6 because it would be balanced.

And would ANY dark monk give up bursting rings,tod,SF,weighted HW, etc. for the extra shortsword 3d6? I content they will not. NS3 would just be another useless pre. Shortswords are not the way for the dark monk. Not without better bab, crit range, multiplier and the ability to use SF and Tod with them. But as I have said before, have you ever seen a blunt SW? (for the stunning +10 bonus) I don't know any monks that would give up the best parts of the class to wield an underwhelming weapon such as short sword (especially when all the good dps/cc/bab comes from HW).

EDIT:
PS. Why isn't anyone complaining about the uberness of a halfling dark monk. They are only behind the Helf by aprox 2 points of sneak damage. This seems to be just a lot of smoke, mirrors, and monk hate. But hey, whats new, they have been on the wrong side of the joke for years now.

[Soleran]

The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. .

Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.