Ninja Spy III

[Soleran]

This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.

Terrible, just terrible, you hit that little rogue haste button that stacks with caster haste and u have the highest DPS in game on non fort and 50% fort mobs (99%) of games, monks never have that option.

Rogues have umd , huge umd, heal scrolls, stone skin, teleport, rez in general much better crits just stop your rambling, it's terrible and so poorly issued, you have no math to back your numbers, you have little to say other then bash ideas.

Strength monks have no armor to speak of, rogues dominate with umd, sa, crit, haste, traps etc etc etc you are out of your range here.

[Blank_Zero]

Walk on Water would be better if it were

1. Cheaper (20 ki? really)
2. Viable (only useful in Abbot)
3. Not Broken

Shuriken specialties? I have a +1 Holy Silver of Improved Precise Shot, so YESPLZ

Using ToD and Stun with Short Swords? YEs. Makes sense too. Think of a Ninja using a Sai. You can flip it up and use the palm of your hand still.

3d6 SA added would make sense and be linear. To the Rogue complainers, you get SA regardless of the PrE you take. Monks only get it as a certain path. Yours is free, ours definitely isn't.

I'd like something that make Shortswords more viable though, apart from the ToD/Stun idea. Maybe increase crit multiplier, added dmg die steps to the base dmg (2d10 vs. 1d6 is silly), etc.

Also, I REALLY liked the DDoor-type ability. It made me lol.

Edit: I just LR'd my Dark Monk into a Stunner Shintao and atm, I miss ToD. Pray for me

[Blank_Zero]

This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.

Cale, you know me. So please here me out.

First read my above post on how Rogues get their enhanced SA for free.

6d6 SA is not broken. Not one bit. Especially when it takes 18 levels in a very splashable class to get. Yes, Monks are survivable, but a well played Rogue in any group is also awesome. Even on character creation, Rogues are listed as difficult under solo ability. Monks are listed as a good choice. Pallys are a survivable class as well, as I know you know.

Also, no Barb favors CON over STR. Ever, ever, ever. No Barb will brag about a 90 CON, cuz they can't GET it. Strength is a Barbs best friend. CON is a close second.

Fighters and unRaged Barbs are simliar in STR comparisons, as they use a LOT of the same gear choices.

You're swinging blind bud.

Also, this:

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.

Double Checked the Wiki.
Unless you're counting Slow Fall as a more-survivable ability, 14 and 18 aren't that good, except that 18 gives another Feat and Shintao 3/*maybe* Ninja 3

[Calebro]

6d6 SA is not broken. Not one bit. Especially when it takes 18 levels in a very splashable class to get. Yes, Monks are survivable, but a well played Rogue in any group is also awesome. Even on character creation, Rogues are listed as difficult under solo ability. Monks are listed as a good choice. Pallys are a survivable class as well, as I know you know.

Also, no Barb favors CON over STR. Ever, ever, ever. No Barb will brag about a 90 CON, cuz they can't GET it. Strength is a Barbs best friend. CON is a close second.

Fighters and unRaged Barbs are simliar in STR comparisons, as they use a LOT of the same gear choices.

You're swinging blind bud.

Double Checked the Wiki.
Unless you're counting Slow Fall as a more-survivable ability, 14 and 18 aren't that good, except that 18 gives another Feat and Shintao 3/*maybe* Ninja 3

Rogues are indeed difficult to solo, while monks are much easier. The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. This same ability makes them great in groups.
This same ability is the reason that they are squishy. To make them less squishy is to break the balance of the class.
Monks are indeed easier to solo. This is because of all of their defensive attributes, coupled with a higher base damage die.
Taking the thing that makes rogues great in groups, but also designates them as squishies, and giving that ability in FULL EFFECT to a more defensive, less squishy class.... certainly does break balance.

Barb: What ability does their class enhancement raise? Con is the favored ability for barbs. Just because they aren't generally built with Con as their main stat doesn't change that fact.

Monk's defenses: Read what you quoted. and think about slow fall. Slow fall reduces damage taken from a fall. That's a utility ability designed to enhance survivability. My point still stands. There is not one single level that doesn't offer some sort of survivability boost to a monk. Not one.
And even if you don't count 14 & 18, then 18/20 levels applies. Giving sneak attack in full effect [half-elves get MORE sneak attack dice than non-assassin rogues with the first capstone, that's full effect] to such a defensive class is a huge mistake.

Question:
Do you think it's OK for any class, any build, any character to get more sneak attack dice than a rogue, under any circumstances?
Remember, rogues are the ONLY class that gets sneak attack dice of their own accord.
Sneak attack is *their thing* and no one else's.
For anyone else that doesn't even have a single level of rogue to surpass that amount of sneak attack dice, for any reason, is a huge game balance issue.

[Tirisha]

I must admit that I always thought it was kinda odd that the ninja spy got 3D6 sneak in 2 tiers and the assassin only gets 3 in 3 Tiers. I think an obvious progression would have been 1 2 3 but they already screwed that up so we'll have to wait and see. Though I do think the ninja spy would need love if they choose not to increase their dps, They get a lot of useless abilities, ie tier 2 would be a sad tier without 2d6 sneak. Water-walk would at least be cool if it actually WORKED! faster sneak is cool but only useful in one quest in the game (epic claw). Shortswords only work situationally till the vale after which they just clog up inv space.

[waterboytkd]

Rogues are indeed difficult to solo, while monks are much easier. The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. This same ability makes them great in groups.
This same ability is the reason that they are squishy. To make them less squishy is to break the balance of the class.
Monks are indeed easier to solo. This is because of all of their defensive attributes, coupled with a higher base damage die.
Taking the thing that makes rogues great in groups, but also designates them as squishies, and giving that ability in FULL EFFECT to a more defensive, less squishy class.... certainly does break balance.

Slow down there. We're talking about a helf dark monk. How good of soloers do you think they are? They're going to have 1 ability to heal themselves (wholeness of body), and otherwise have to rely on pots. Also, they, too, will lose sneak attack when soloing, making them not nearly so good when by themselves. Rogues, meanwhile, have UMD. That's the best skill in the game. Possibly even broken (I do believe some game imbalance is due to that skill). With it, Rogues are nowhere near squishy (thanks to buff wands/scrolls), and have access to Heal. Sure, monks can cross-class that skill, but they can't get anywhere near the levels of Rogue, and can never no fail the most useful stuff.

As for rogues, your argument that they are squishy is weird. I regularly group with a few good rogues, and they are not squishy. They typically have the same hp as my Dex/Wis monk that had a starting Con of 16 so he could get the full earth stance line. Also, they can compete, if not surpass, monks for AC. Rogues have way more options with their gear, and in a race to see who can get the best AC without gimping dps, rogue wins (access to both +4 Dodge and +4 Insight, access to Chattering Ring, easy use of Shield wands). Also, the best ability that monks have to make them more survivable is Improved Evasion. Guess what, Rogues have that, too.

What do Monks get that Rogues don't? Slow fall (easily remedied with FF item), innate SR, immunity to Poison and Disease (remedy is just a potion away), and DR 10/Epic (again, Rogues can just Stoneskin themselves for DR 10/adamantine). The only awesome ability that Monks get that Rogues can't duplicate is Abundant Step.

And for DPS, Rogues aren't hurting even when they aren't Sneak Attacking. Strength-based Rogues are still dealing high amounts of damage, and have access to much better weapons than a Monk (khopesh*, rapier). They also get access to GS crafting, which is a very big deal. As an avid monk player, I would trade my unique use of ToD rings for GS handwraps in a heartbeat. Also, on the topic of GS, Rogues can, and usually do, craft a Radiance II weapon. Hey, look at that, sneak attack is back...
*Yes, Rogues need to take a feat to use them (like everyone else), but that's a viable option for Rogues. It is not viable for Monks.

So, saying a Rogue should never be beaten by anything in terms of Sneak Attack, despite not enhancing it at all, because they have nothing else is just wrong. They have a lot going for em.

As for Barbs and their Con...seriously? It doesn't seem obvious that the devs made Con their enhancement line because if it were Strength, pure Fighters would have almost nothing left going for them (Kensai would be it). In fact, this gives me an idea for a new thread...

But let's spin this around. Clearly, a Monk's "thing" is his survivability. I mean, he sacrifices dps for it. Therefore, a Monk who does nothing to enhance is own survivability should not be less survivable than any other class/race/enhancement/feat/skill combination...right...

[Chai]

For anyone else that doesn't even have a single level of rogue to surpass that amount of sneak attack dice, for any reason, is a huge game balance issue.

/agree.

If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels. If they give much more SA to this PRE, we will see half elf dilly dark monks with ~10d6 SA. Since the rogue SA doesnt stack with hElf dilly, they will have 10d6 as well without a PRE /capstone. Once they take the assassin PRE and the capstone they will gain 7d6 more SA, but if a rogue goes 19/1 accrobat / anything else, they would have the same SA as a hElf dark monk. /facepalm.

Rogues have a number of issues to contend with already. Survivability -vs- heavy hitting melee, to-hit, aggro management, low DPS -vs- crit immune SA immune mobs, etc, and the one good thing they do have is being handed out to other classes now as class abilities, race abilities, and item abilities.

Giving monks this much SA is like giving rogues a kukan-do like ability based on rogue level with a high DC, immunity to poison and disease, and DR 10/epic.

[waterboytkd]

the one good thing they do have is being handed out to other classes now as class abilities, race abilities, and item abilities.

The one good thing? Considering that no one really splashes rogue for their sneak attack, but for the Evasion at level 2 and, oh yeah, UMD, I would say their Sneak Attack isn't their "one good thing".

And dark monks weren't getting 10d6 Sneak Attack. The proposed idea was +3d6 Sneak Attack at tier 3, which would give 6d6, 9d6 with helf rogue dilly.

It should be pointed out, though, I'm not arguing whether that's fair or broken. What I'm arguing is that the notion that a Mechanic Rogue dwarf who doesn't take haste boost and takes the first capstone should never be beaten in Sneak Attack dice per minute by a non-Rogue by virtue that Sneak Attack is the only thing he's got going on for him. If that were true, why isn't every single Rogue an Assassin with the second capstone? It's because a Rogue has got a lot more going on for them besides Sneak Attack, and if you choose to focus in one of those other areas, then you aren't going to be king of Sneak Attack. That's called balance.

Again, if Rogues should be the kings of Sneak Attack without putting any resources into it, then other classes should be the king of their features without effort. And if that were the case, there would be no customization within classes. Boring. And let's not forget, either, that the PrCs in PnP were (in)famous for blurring the lines between classes. It stands to reason that the PrE's in DDO can do the same. Not every PrE needs to be a specialization within that class. Ninja Spy is like the Monk/Rogue PrE (bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, Sneak Attack dice, turning invisible).

Also

If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels.

Incorrect. If you want Improved Evasion, a monk benefit, you can simply take it with one of your Rogue feats. Uh-oh, but Improved Evasion is also a Rogue benefit? Well, Sneak Attack is also a dark monk Ninja Spy benefit.

[Calebro]

If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels.

Incorrect. If you want Improved Evasion, a monk benefit, you can simply take it with one of your Rogue feats. Uh-oh, but Improved Evasion is also a Rogue benefit? Well, Sneak Attack is also a dark monk Ninja Spy benefit.

I'm not even going to get into how much I disagree with the rest of your post, because I'd simply be repeating myself.

But on this point quoted above, your comprehension = fail.
I think it's fairly obvious that he was speaking of any ability *unique* to monks. And yes, you'd have to splash to get any ability unique to a monk, and in doing so you'd sacrifice DPS.
He was speaking that way because, until Ninja Spy, sneak attacks were *unique* to rogues. But if 3d6 more SA is added to NS3, then half-elf monks without a single level of rogue will be superior to some rogues in SA ability. That's just utterly ridiculous.

[Hecore]

But if 3d6 more SA is added to NS3, then half-elf monks without a single level of rogue will be superior to some rogues in SA ability. That's just utterly ridiculous.

Only poorly played Rogues -- people seem to love not including the +12 to sneak attack damage Rogues get access to through enhancements, or just about 3 1/2 more dice. And even though the Monks in your examples take Half-Elf solely for the sneak attack enhancements, the Rogue would never take Halfling for their stacking chain.

Any half competent Rogue will outclass any tier 3 Half-Elf Ninja Spy, regardless of race.

[Robi3.0]

If I remember correctly the 3.5 base class Ninja which this PrE is most likely based on had comparable Sudden strike dice to that of a rogues sneak attack dice. Sudden strike was an ability that was slightly more restrictive then Sneak attack, those difference don't apply in DDO, so ninja should and could have sneak dice similar to rogues.

There are several classes that have abilities similar to Sneak Attack the differences again would most likely not apply to DDO. As DDO grows rogues should get used to the fact that they will not been the only ones doing damage via sneak attacks.

Even if Ninja spy 3 gets 3d6 sneak dice an Assassin 3 halflings with the none lame capstone will still be the best sneak DPS in the game even compared to helf ninja spy 3's.

PS if your rogue is squishy that is your fault not game design.

[Calebro]

If I remember correctly the 3.5 base class Ninja which this PrE is most likely based on had comparable Sudden strike dice to that of a rogues sneak attack dice. Sudden strike was an ability that was slightly more restrictive then Sneak attack, those difference don't apply in DDO, so ninja should and could have sneak dice similar to rogues.

Actually, this Ninja Spy is taken from the Oriental Adventures book. There is a Prestige Class named Ninja Spy within, and it gains 3d6 sneak attack dice over it's progression, as well as the ability to walk on water and Hide in Plain Sight [which has been improved in this case to Shadow Fade].

Even if Ninja spy 3 gets 3d6 sneak dice an Assassin 3 halflings with the none lame capstone will still be the best sneak DPS in the game even compared to helf ninja spy 3's.

I'm not comparing an optimal rogue to a ninja spy. I'm comparing a non-optimal rogue to a ninja spy. The worst rogue in the game should do more SA dice than a pure monk. That's my point.

[Robi3.0]

Actually, this Ninja Spy is taken from the Oriental Adventures book. There is a Prestige Class named Ninja Spy within, and it gains 3d6 sneak attack dice over it's progression, as well as the ability to walk on water and Hide in Plain Sight [which has been improved in this case to Shadow Fade].

Okay, never read that book. The Ninja base class from The Complete Adventurer has very similar abilities so adding that to the game would be pointless. There is no reason Turbine couldn't mass the to ideas together.

My point still stands Sneak attack like damage was not exclusive to rogues in PnP and shouldn't be expected to be exclusive to rogues in DDO.

I'm not comparing an optimal rogue to a ninja spy. I'm comparing a non-optimal rogue to a ninja spy. The worst rogue in the game should do more SA dice than a pure monk. That's my point.

Comparing an optimal build to a non optimal build is hardly a fair and balance comparison.

Monk's best case scenario of 9d6 sneak dice is hardly game breaking when compared to Rogue's base case scenario of 17d6+20

[Calebro]

Okay, never read that book. The Ninja base class from The Complete Adventurer has very similar abilities so adding that to the game would be pointless. There is no reason Turbine couldn't mass the to ideas together.

My point still stands Sneak attack like damage was not exclusive to rogues in PnP and shouldn't be expected to be exclusive to rogues in DDO.

Monk's best case scenario of 9d6 sneak dice is hardly game breaking when compared to Rogue's base case scenario of 17d6+20

Once again, I'm not comparing an optimized rogue. Ignore the 17d6. I'm comparing a non-optimzed rogue.
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
In case you missed this from the last page:

As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

<snip>

** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

An extra 3d6 at tier 3 would create a situation where a pure monk gets more SA dice over the same period of time. This would be a huge error and a huge break in game balance.

An equivalent comparison would be to offer a PrE for rogues that gave them Flurry of Blows and unarmed attacks at 2d12 each. It would completely invalidate monks.
The opposite will happen if another 3d6 is added at t3. It will invalidate rogues.
It would simply be bad for the game.

[Robi3.0]

Once again, I'm not comparing an optimized rogue. Ignore the 17d6. I'm comparing a non-optimzed rogue.
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
In case you missed this from the last page:
.

A pure rogue gets 10d6 if that rogue cares about sneak dice they can spend 2 Ap to get 4d6 more grand total 14d6. Even if that rogue doesn't then they would still get 10d6 which last time I checked was more then 6d6 or 9d6 in the case of a helf.

There is no rule anywhere that a rogue should have the most sneak dice that is a believe of yours and not a rule of game design.

Turbine should reward people that optimize not protect players that don't.

[Bodic]

if they add +3d6 SA a lvl 18 non assassin would have the same SA dice as a lvl 18 dark Ninja if they were to take the rogue Helf dilly that is overpower'd.

no non full rogue should ever be able to have more SA dice than a rogue. now true the base + SA on a halfing rogue would still be better(if barely) due to enhancements.

[Calebro]

1. A pure rogue gets 10d6 if that rogue cares about sneak dice they can spend 2 Ap to get 4d6 more grand total 14d6. Even if that rogue doesn't then they would still get 10d6 which last time I checked was more then 6d6 or 9d6 in the case of a helf.

2. There is no rule anywhere that a rogue should have the most sneak dice that is a believe of yours and not a rule of game design.

Turbine should reward people that optimize not protect players that don't.

1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

2. Every class in the game has one thing that it does better than anyone else. For rogues that one thing is sneak attacking. As a matter of fact, thgey are the only ones that can even do it innately. For the possibility of a completely different class to be superior at it than they are is just ridiculous.
To have the class that surpasses them at it be a class that excels where a rogue is weak is just foolish, and balance breaking.

[Blank_Zero]

Pure monks can't do traps.

Pure monks can't get awesome UMD.

Pure monks can only get marginally close to the stealth that a Pure Rogue Assassin can achieve.

Pure monks get one insta-death ability, and it really isn't all that good.

1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

This is a bit skewed bud. Air 4 Stance gives the same speed as Haste, and as far as I can tell, doesn't stack. Rogues can get the same AND Rogue Haste 4.

[waterboytkd]

I'm still waiting to hear how monks are more survivable than rogues. Other than (most likely) having a better Fort and Will save, I'm pretty sure rogues will be better survivors than monks. Still waiting to hear how this is wrong.

[Robi3.0]

1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

2. Every class in the game has one thing that it does better than anyone else. For rogues that one thing is sneak attacking. As a matter of fact, thgey are the only ones that can even do it innately. For the possibility of a completely different class to be superior at it than they are is just ridiculous.
To have the class that surpasses them at it be a class that excels where a rogue is weak is just foolish, and balance breaking.

I am sorry that you have an overly simplistic view of game design. A class is the some total of its abilities, and can not be defined by one individual ability.