Ninja Spy III

[Calebro]

Hmm.... maybe I'm getting my Us mixed up can anybody else verify this?

Prior to U5 it was a single strike that interrupted your chain.
Post U5, when the off hand mechanics were changed, was when you were seeing multiple procs. Shortly thereafter the bug was noticed. It was recreatable at any time you wished to produce up to 3 procs fairly consistently, sometimes going as high as 5 if you were lucky and timed it just right.
Prior to the bug, it was a fun little broken toy that, while not WAI, wasn't game breaking enough to warrant Dev attention immediately.
Once the bug became more commonly known and widespread, it became time for the Devs to step in and fix it with what you all called a nerf.

It wasn't a nerf. It was a fix.

[Soleran]

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.

You're right there is no splitting of hairs, the nerf was the change to resists for ToD not the number of strikes which was obviously not correct.

[Calebro]

You're right there is no splitting of hairs, the nerf was the change to resists for ToD not the number of strikes which was obviously not correct.

And that was put in place to create a situation where the strike would deal 500, 750, or 1000 damage.
Previously, it would deal 500 damage, period.
You still won out on the deal.
It's not a nerf if you end up better off than you started.

[Veriden]

True to ninja form, ninja spy 3 is out..you just can't see it.

[nebogloee]

I had one of these threads up a while back - check it out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300166

Here was on of the best observations from the thread:

Personally, I’d like the set bonus to become +1 Ki generation (So I could ditch the Oremi’s set) and Sneak Attack +5 (So I could ditch Tharne’s Goggles for something better.)

As for the PrE:

• No more idiotic prereqs Cause that seems to be Turbine’s downfall with their PrE designs.
• Enhanced Quivering Palm: Costs the same, counts as a dark move, shares timer with the QP feat, DC is now 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod, does the single strike animation. Does 30 points of negative energy damage per monk level if mob is warded from insta death spells.
• Enhanced Sneak Attack Damage: +3d6 for a total of +6d6 damage.
• Improved ki generation on Sneak Attacks: Should probably be divided up over the 3 tiers but it would be nice to finally break the ******** Oremi’s + Elegant Crane chokehold on decent ki generation.

I really want Wis modifier to damage or hit - give another incentive for dark path not to dump wis. Improved ki gen would be great - after those big boss battles light monks have a full bar of ki and dark monks are fresh out - give us a good reason to dump the oremi/crane setup for something more path specific.

Shortswords will never be a better option than HW. Not without making them OP. We will never see SF or ToD work with swords. You ever seen a stunning +10 shortsword? We are blunt objects of destruction, 2d10 with full offhand, Shortswords are for xclassing. Give me an extra 6d6, heck 8d6 with SW and I will still use HW. Please stop with the SW suggestions - they will just water down an already watered down pre. Oh and Turbine, fix the tod set already!

[Calebro]

I had one of these threads up a while back - check it out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300166

Here was on of the best observations from the thread:

Personally, I’d like the set bonus to become +1 Ki generation (So I could ditch the Oremi’s set) and Sneak Attack +5 (So I could ditch Tharne’s Goggles for something better.)

As for the PrE:

* No more idiotic prereqs Cause that seems to be Turbine’s downfall with their PrE designs.
* Enhanced Quivering Palm: Costs the same, counts as a dark move, shares timer with the QP feat, DC is now 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod, does the single strike animation. Does 30 points of negative energy damage per monk level if mob is warded from insta death spells.
* Enhanced Sneak Attack Damage: +3d6 for a total of +6d6 damage.
* Improved ki generation on Sneak Attacks: Should probably be divided up over the 3 tiers but it would be nice to finally break the ******** Oremi’s + Elegant Crane chokehold on decent ki generation.

I really want Wis modifier to damage or hit - give another incentive for dark path not to dump wis. Improved ki gen would be great - after those big boss battles light monks have a full bar of ki and dark monks are fresh out - give us a good reason to dump the oremi/crane setup for something more path specific.

Shortswords will never be a better option than HW. Not without making them OP. We will never see SF or ToD work with swords. You ever seen a stunning +10 shortsword? We are blunt objects of destruction, 2d10 with full offhand, Shortswords are for xclassing. Give me an extra 6d6, heck 8d6 with SW and I will still use HW. Please stop with the SW suggestions - they will just water down an already watered down pre. Oh and Turbine, fix the tod set already!

You call *that* one of the best observations from the thread? They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best. I'll take them in order here.

* A small amount of idiotic prereqs are a good thing. They force you to choose between taking a PrE and optimizing 100% without consequence.

* Enhanced quivering palm idea isn't terrible, but it shouldn't do anywhere NEAR as much damage as suggested.

* As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

* The reason that dark monks struggle with ki generation is because ToD is so expensive. ToD is so expensive because it's extremely powerful. Struggling to continue to power an ability that is extremely powerful and can be used consistently is called balance. Casters have to use their mana wisely. Dark monks have to manage their ki wisely. The reason that light monks have less problems with this is because their abilites aren't as powerful.

* Wis mod to damage? Sorry, but if rogue's can't have the Shadow Blade feat, then why should monks get Wis to damage? At least there's a D&D counterpart to the rogue's claim. No such ability exists in D&D for Wis to damage that I'm aware of.

** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

[Soleran]

** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

You don't balance a class by the abilities of ONE race with ONE specific build or when are we going to see the HOrc nerfs across the board, that's a seriously fail point. Rogues have THE highest dps in game on non fort mobs by such a huge amount it won't even matter, aside from that 3d6 tier 3 ninja pre whatever good for dark monks.

And that was put in place to create a situation where the strike would deal 500, 750, or 1000 damage.
Previously, it would deal 500 damage, period.
You still won out on the deal.
It's not a nerf if you end up better off than you started.

Man you like to marginalize, it was also given negative energy so certain mobs are immune as well as given saves. It was nerfed, you may like to dance and sing and say this and that however it doesn't change the fact Eladrin had said WAI then not only changed the resists to it but also made it negative energy instead of untyped. It's called a nerf from where it was in game, the only non nerf was the change to the number of strikes.

[Calebro]

You don't balance a class by the abilities of ONE race with ONE specific build or when are we going to see the HOrc nerfs across the board, that's a seriously fail point. Rogues have THE highest dps in game on non fort mobs by such a huge amount it won't even matter, aside from that 3d6 tier 3 ninja pre whatever good for dark monks.

Yes you certainly can.
There is no situation where a monk should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue. This is not something that should need to be argued. If there is ever any situation where a monk receives more sneak attack dice than a rogue, there is a very serious problem.
Adding 3d6 sneak attack dice at tier 3 would create a situation where a monk could receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, and it is therefore a HORRIBLE idea.

Man you like to marginalize, it was also given negative energy so certain mobs are immune as well as given saves. It was nerfed, you may like to dance and sing and say this and that however it doesn't change the fact Eladrin had said WAI then not only changed the resists to it but also made it negative energy instead of untyped. It's called a nerf from where it was in game, the only non nerf was the change to the number of strikes.

We disagreed last year when we discussed it, and we disagree here.
No amount of debating the issue will change either of our minds, so there is no more reason to discuss it.

[nebogloee]

You call *that* one of the best observations from the thread? They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best. I'll take them in order here.

* A small amount of idiotic prereqs are a good thing. They force you to choose between taking a PrE and optimizing 100% without consequence.

So the "idiotic" small 4 debuffs that no one uses is a sign of good design? If they are not going to make them relevant, toss em out, because as of right now, ToD is one of the most expensive AP lines in the game. Without it, no one would roll a dark monk, with it, most darks cannot fit the void line. So that leaves light with all its goodies and reasonable AP access to the void line.

* Enhanced quivering palm idea isn't terrible, but it shouldn't do anywhere NEAR as much damage as suggested.

Yeah, some balance on the amount may have to be considered.

* As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

Seems like you forget that a rouge can use the helf dilly too. And the mechanic/thief acro are not supposed to be top sneakers. Why compare a helf dark monk to a non helf non assassin? Apples to Apples Please.

* The reason that dark monks struggle with ki generation is because ToD is so expensive. ToD is so expensive because it's extremely powerful. Struggling to continue to power an ability that is extremely powerful and can be used consistently is called balance. Casters have to use their mana wisely. Dark monks have to manage their ki wisely. The reason that light monks have less problems with this is because their abilites aren't as powerful.

Dark ki generation requirements for bosses can only met with oremis/crane/fire. You need all of them to keep tod,2 earth, 1 elect, iron first, earth finisher (or more) on timer. Even if they rework the tod set, without compensation for the loss of oremis, most darks will not switch.

* Wis mod to damage? Sorry, but if rogue's can't have the Shadow Blade feat, then why should monks get Wis to damage? At least there's a D&D counterpart to the rogue's claim. No such ability exists in D&D for Wis to damage that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I believe some ability did exist for wis to hit, but damage would be nice. But if the rougues haven't got it, then no one should.

One thing that people forget in the dark monk to rouge comparison is that dark monks, a la ToD, tend to pull agro. The sneak dice they get is by no means the largest part of their damage, ToD is. And that gets mobs/bosses attention, not to mention its hard to keep the threat down on a dark monk. I like a lot of the suggestions I have seen thrown around: flavor, dps, uniqueness - these are all things that make the game more fun, hopefully turbine can give us some more info on the pre's (new and old) as update 8.2/9 approaches over the next couple of months. Just keep the suggestions rolling and the new threads appearing, maybe Turbine will take notice

[Calebro]

Seems like you forget that a rouge can use the helf dilly too. And the mechanic/thief acro are not supposed to be top sneakers. Why compare a helf dark monk to a non helf non assassin? Apples to Apples Please.

Wrong.
The half elf dilly does not apply if you have levels in the class that the dilly simulates. IE: They do not stack.
So a half elf rogue can't also have the rogue dilly.
Well, he can have it, but it's wasted and doesn't stack.

And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.

[nebogloee]

Wrong.
The half elf dilly does not apply if you have levels in the class that the dilly simulates. IE: They do not stack.
So a half elf rogue can't also have the rogue dilly.
Well, he can have it, but it's wasted and doesn't stack.

And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.

Sorry, forgots about that.

Easy fix: make the helf rouge dilly not stack with NS sneak attack.

But imho, this is the nature of the racial creep. As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges? They have other things that are supposed to make up for the lack of top rouge sneak dps (not to mention thier choice of helf dillies). But again this is weird comparison, to make an analogy: barbs should have the most strength of any build. But that may not be the case with a horc fighter vs a half barb. Does that mean the fighter or halfling are broken? The newest couple of the races change the balance quite a bit, there are definitely better races for certain classes. Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?

[Calebro]

As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges?
<snip>
Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?

Competitive is fine. Superior is the problem.
And no, I haven't done that comparison, because that comparison doesn't matter.
The best monk should have less sneak attack than the worst rogue, so the optimal halfling rogue is inconsequential. It doesn't have to be a lot less, but it should surely be less.

[Soleran]

Yes you certainly can.
There is no situation where a monk should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue. This is not something that should need to be argued. If there is ever any situation where a monk receives more sneak attack dice than a rogue, there is a very serious problem.
Adding 3d6 sneak attack dice at tier 3 would create a situation where a monk could receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, and it is therefore a HORRIBLE idea.

That's clearly your opinion, so one race, pre, class can beat a non sa focused rogue who didn't take assassin for more SA damage, there is no problem with that. You're math is off from what's been shown recently for monk attack speed so your math debate holds zero value http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ht=swing+speed will give you an idea of what you should formulate to create your next sa dps discussion.

We disagreed last year when we discussed it, and we disagree here.
No amount of debating the issue will change either of our minds, so there is no more reason to discuss it.

I'm not debating, I'm correcting you. I stated facts you presented half truth/information until I brought up those facts which you attempted to make value statements for, I wasn't here to debate or talk about benefits just correcting your information presented.

As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges?
<snip>
Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?

Halflings can get as high as 8 sa damage per strike , Helf's get 3d6 or about 10.5 damage per swing, this is of course before fort is applied.

[Calebro]

I'm not debating, I'm correcting you. I stated facts you presented half truth/information until I brought up those facts which you attempted to make value statements for, I wasn't here to debate or talk about benefits just correcting your information presented.

Your "corrections" are based on a misinterpretation of Eladrin's [or Tolero's, I forget which] words.
Every time the two of us have any sort of contact we end up arguing about something. It's tiring. I'll be adding you to my ignore list because I don't like to constantly argue about the same things with the same people all of the time.

edit:
And just so we're clear, as I've already told you in the past:
The question that was asked of Eladrin was something to the effect of "how is ToD going to work under the new system?"
When Eladrin stated that ToD would have a chance to proc on off hand attacks, he was answering the question as it was posed.
As ToD was created as a single strike, there was no question whether or not a second strike was intended when it was created. It was not intended.
The new mechanics changed the way that ToD worked, but they did not change what was intended when the strike was created.
The implied question was whether or not this would be considered WAI. Eladrin did not answer the question that was implied, because that question was never asked. He simply answered the question as it was posed.

But all the monks assumed he answered the implied question and use that implication for their arguments.
Don't assume. Just read the question as it was asked, and read the answer as it was given.

So your "correction" is simply wrong.

[nebogloee]

These seems to happen in so many class forums. Most people argue with a bias. I myself am biased. My main is a monk, and hes the funnest thing to play imo,so I argue with that in mind. But I have seen it on the ranger forums, rogue forums, and others. Someone with a pet class does everything possible to protect their class's superiority by tainting good discussions on other class threads. Bring dps calcs proper, make reasonable comparisons, or complain about the gimp nature of a specific build in that class's forums.

[Soleran]

These seems to happen in so many class forums. Most people argue with a bias. I myself am biased. My main is a monk, and hes the funnest thing to play imo,so I argue with that in mind. But I have seen it on the ranger forums, rogue forums, and others. Someone with a pet class does everything possible to protect their class's superiority by tainting good discussions on other class threads. Bring dps calcs proper, make reasonable comparisons, or complain about the gimp nature of a specific build in that class's forums.

I agree with you, it would just be nice if the opposing side was at least accurate in the information they used to attempt to bash posts or suggestions.

[Calebro]

Oh, and the numbers are wrong are they?
Look at the left of that chart. It says Swing Animations Per Minute.
Animations is the key word. Animations applies to main hand. So add 80% for off hand, and then add % chance for doublestrike. If anything, my numbers are low for the monk.

[Soleran]

Oh, and the numbers are wrong are they?
Look at the left of that chart. It says Swing Animations Per Minute.
Animations is the key word. Animations applies to main hand. So add 80% for off hand, and then add % chance for doublestrike. If anything, my numbers are low for the monk.

93.2 unarmed vs 86.7 twf unhasted of course.

[waterboytkd]

And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.

This is the basis of your argument for why Ninja Spy III should not at 3d6 Sneak Attack. If this were true, your arguments would hold a lot of water. This isn't true.

Just because Sneak Attack is the main way that rogues deal damage does not mean that a rogue who completely neglects their Sneak Attack should be doing better Sneak Attack than any non-Rogue. That was not 3rd edition. One of the best aspects of third edition was that classes were incredibly customizable and a Rogue was not the same as a Rogue, not every Fighter looked the same, and even very linear classes like Barbarian could play very differently.

So, a monk that takes a PrE that is supposed to make it more like a Rogue (Sneak Attack-wise) AND takes a race that makes it more like a rogue (again, Sneak Attack-wise) should, in fact, compete with a Rogue Sneak Attack-wise. And it definately should surpass a Rogue who does absolutely nothing to improve their Sneak Attack at all.

I believe the example was made: a Barbarian's "staple" is his high strength score. So a Barbarian who in no way takes any feats/enhancements to boost his strength should have a higher strength than any other non-barbarian build? Even ones taking Horc? I mean, that's just stupid. And, it completely destroys the customizable aspect to the 3rd edition building process.

PS Someone mentioned that they didn't like that now, with Helf, when they think about getting the most Sneak Attack, they cringe because Helfs beat Halflings. I just wanted to point out: Helf Rogues do not take Helf Dilly Rogue. If they did, they screwed up. That Dilly Sneak Attack won't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack. Halfling Rogues (especially ones that take the Assassin PrE and the Capstone for +4d6) are the absolute kings of Sneak Attack. And against any critter without fort, are commonly believed to be the absolute kings of dps.

[Calebro]

So, a monk that takes a PrE that is supposed to make it more like a Rogue (Sneak Attack-wise) AND takes a race that makes it more like a rogue (again, Sneak Attack-wise) should, in fact, compete with a Rogue Sneak Attack-wise. And it definately should surpass a Rogue who does absolutely nothing to improve their Sneak Attack at all.

I believe the example was made: a Barbarian's "staple" is his high strength score. So a Barbarian who in no way takes any feats/enhancements to boost his strength should have a higher strength than any other non-barbarian build? Even ones taking Horc? I mean, that's just stupid. And, it completely destroys the customizable aspect to the 3rd edition building process.

This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.