Ninja Spy III

[Tirisha]

Previous to light monk revamp it was just accepted fact that dark was superior, but now that light got thrown a bone I see alot of moaning coming out of the dark monk corner. This parallels the fact that it was just accepted that sorcs were just considered superior, and not a peep out of wizards, then wizards got their PRE love and the sorcs begin complaining up a storm.

We know when true balance is achieved when the build enthusiasts start complaining about the class. If they arent, we clearly know that one PRE outshines the others, and they just all jump on it and be quiet, heh.

Eh even before the Revamp I knew a lot more light monks than I did dark. An accepted fact would be that dark monks were better dps than light monks but ultimately the light punch and all the light finishers contribute far more too solo play and group play than a little more dps could.

Also I don't think it's the OPs intention to complain about imbalance between pre's as it is he's trying to help create ideas for the Ninja spy 3 which the dev's have already mention was on there mind for the short future.

In regards to the pre, I would be more interested in seeing TOD work with a shortsword than most anything else. Simple fact is the wpn is just not viable on a monk; though making a shortsword build would be flavorful, not being able to use TOD would be downright irresponsible for a dark monk since they don't have much else going for them.

[Tunst]

longer shadow fade for same amount of ki.
with the same cooldown.
yeahhhh.

and to whomever quoted me, i dont mean sneak attack and touch of death are just okay, i mean they make sense being given to a dark monk and those arent the ones i find stupid.
walking on water is stupid
so is shortswords, but with the new epic shortswords from the event, i will be crafting a craft and running dps tests.

[sephiroth1084]

The shortsword abilities are nice for the period in which Banishing works well. If they worked with ToD and Stunning Fist some epic ones would be worth using. They're also decent, I guess, if you're really concerned about AC since you can throw some combination of Insight +4, +2 Dex, +2 Wis on a pair for those situations in which you need it.

Also, the benefits are decent if you're multiclassed.

The ability to walk on water is interesting, and useful in a couple of places (Abbot is the biggie). If it were fixed to work on all water (currently broken in a lot of places), it would be a convenience.

Longer Shadow Fade would be nice, but I'd rather get something new and interesting.

[waterboytkd]

I think Ninja 3 should gain the 3d6 sneak attack and all the random skill boosts that it got at the other tiers. Continuing the progression of the utility spell-like ki ablities, maybe they could get Dimension Door for 30 ki (where the hell did that ninja go?).

As for the shortswords, they should get the ability to perform ToD and Stunning Fist with them, gain the unarmed attack speed with them, gain full str bonus to the offhand instead of half, and negate the TWF attack penalty. What that would essentially do is make them unarmed, except piercing instead of bludgeoning, and 1d6, 19-20/x2 instead of 2d10 20/x2. And, Ninja's may actually consider GS crafting then, too.

Really, shortswords need a lot for a monk to consider using them over unarmed. And if a monk wouldn't consider it, then the bonuses Ninja's get to shortswords are just garbage, and only useful for niche builds.

[Soleran]

Dark monk also gets SA damage, and touch of death, but those are only OK, where all the light path stuff is nice and cool deal?

Since this is specifically about Ninja PRE touch of death has nothing to do with it.

Another thought scrap SA damage boost and give ninja 3 x3 crits if they are in a position to do sneak attack damage

[Chai]

Since this is specifically about Ninja PRE touch of death has nothing to do with it.

Another thought scrap SA damage boost and give ninja 3 x3 crits if they are in a position to do sneak attack damage

Orly? How many people are pure monk, ninja spy, and dont have touch of death? It has everything to do with it.

I could see giving them a better crit range like kensai, so with imp crit theyd be 18-20 x2 with wraps.

[Chai]

Eh even before the Revamp I knew a lot more light monks than I did dark. An accepted fact would be that dark monks were better dps than light monks but ultimately the light punch and all the light finishers contribute far more too solo play and group play than a little more dps could.

Also I don't think it's the OPs intention to complain about imbalance between pre's as it is he's trying to help create ideas for the Ninja spy 3 which the dev's have already mention was on there mind for the short future.

In regards to the pre, I would be more interested in seeing TOD work with a shortsword than most anything else. Simple fact is the wpn is just not viable on a monk; though making a shortsword build would be flavorful, not being able to use TOD would be downright irresponsible for a dark monk since they don't have much else going for them.

A little more DPS? A little?

You do realize that the shroud speed records were set by groups full of dark monks with a healer and a caster, right? I dont think we are talking about a_little_bit_more DPS, heh.

Dark is significantly higher DPS than light. Light is the enabler of stun auto crit damage and utility PRE.

Most people will contend that a pure monk should only go handwraps. No other weapon compares. Adding short swords really didnt help but it didnt change anything either.

I think instead of making TOD work with short sword they should get some ability that ONLY works with short sword. It would be more of a choice then and not the best of both worlds all the time.

[Calebro]

The problem that I see with it is that the PrE basically has everything that the PrC had at it's apex, and it has it all by tier 2.
3d6 or 4d6 more SA would just be too much IMO.
Consider:
With 3d6 more SA at tier 3, an half-elf ninja 3 with rogue dilly would have the SA dice of a 17th level rogue. With 4d6 at tier 3, it would be the equivalent of a 19th level rogue. Either way, that's way too much.
They should have made it a simple 1d6 per tier, as the progression scaled similarly in the original PrC.
With that in mind, I'm just not sure what they should do for tier 3.

[Cyr]

I assume it will be +3d6 sneak damage.

If they want shortswords to be a viable attack form for a monk with 18+ levels of monk then they need to have ninja 3 enable ToD to be used with shortswords.

[ckorik]

walking on water is stupid

Perhaps it is stupid - but one of the biggest (real life) feats associated with ninja is the walking on water trick.

It's so legendary Mythbusters tried to figure out if it was even possible.

RL ninja myths: sneaky - hide in shadows - camouflage, magic (disappear like shadow fade), short sword (kanto) use, walk on water, climb walls, etc.

They are the batman

[Calebro]

Perhaps it is stupid - but one of the biggest (real life) feats associated with ninja is the walking on water trick.

It's so legendary Mythbusters tried to figure out if it was even possible.

RL ninja myths: sneaky - hide in shadows - camouflage, magic (disappear like shadow fade), short sword (kanto) use, walk on water, climb walls, etc.

They are the batman

And it was part of the original PrC, although it wasn't called Dance of teh Water Spider, or whatever.

Water Walk (Su): A ninja spy of 5th level or higher can use water walk to walk on any liquid as if it were firm ground. The ninja must concentrate (as a standard action) to perform this ability, and thus can only take a single move or move-equivalent action each round while water walking. The effect lasts for 1 round per ninja level.

Earliest entry to Ninja Spy was at 8.
8 + 5 = 13
They get it here at 12

[lethargos]

The problem that I see with it is that the PrE basically has everything that the PrC had at it's apex, and it has it all by tier 2.
3d6 or 4d6 more SA would just be too much IMO.
Consider:
With 3d6 more SA at tier 3, an half-elf ninja 3 with rogue dilly would have the SA dice of a 17th level rogue. With 4d6 at tier 3, it would be the equivalent of a 19th level rogue. Either way, that's way too much.
They should have made it a simple 1d6 per tier, as the progression scaled similarly in the original PrC.
With that in mind, I'm just not sure what they should do for tier 3.

Very nice example. I think too it would be balanced at d6 per tier. I love my half elven 5d6 SA, but i have a halfling too and always gringe when i do the comparison. I think rogue was supposed to be the ultimate SA king, as was halfling. Turbine introduced some powercreep in races and pre`s and people lose sight on one of the best things in DDO: pretty good balance.

I think ninja spy III needs a offensive ability like kukando/tomb of jade. And if they are gonna keep the shortswords, make monk abilities work with em (stunning fist included, you can nervepinch with shortswords!)

[Soleran]

Orly? How many people are pure monk, ninja spy, and dont have touch of death? It has everything to do with it.

No, it really doesn't since the two aren't tied together.

Just like your comments using a pre nerf shroud record to attempt to validate your position since tod is nerfed handily.

If ninja spy ended with 3d6 sa which seems logical thats fine in progression but I would prefer a way to boost x3 crit mod either way we'll see eventually.

[Calebro]

No, it really doesn't since the two aren't tied together.

Just like your comments using a pre nerf shroud record to attempt to validate your position since tod is nerfed handily.

If ninja spy ended with 3d6 sa which seems logical thats fine in progression but I would prefer a way to boost x3 crit mod either way we'll see eventually.

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.

ToD was originally released as a single strike. There was no off hand attack with it. That single strike broke your attack chain, and that's exactly what was intended.
The changes to the combat system which introduced a % chance to hit with your off hand on every attack nullified the mechanism that made it a single strike.
It was broken.
The bug that allowed even more strikes with it was a completely separate and unrelated issue form that fact that it was never meant to strike more than once.
That specific bug only amplified the issue at hand.

So it went from working as intended --> to broken --> to broken and bugged --> to fixed.

Should he use the bugged... and also at the time broken... example to clarify his point?
No.
Should you attempt to play it down as a huge nerf in which you lost everything and became gimped at the same time, and then use that as your basis for argument to strengthen your own point?
No.

If you're going to call him out for using a poor example, then you should be clear about what happened as well.

Furthermore, yes he should lump ninja spies and ToD together. Sure, the two could hypothetically be taken independently of one another. But the fact remains that Ninja Spy is the dark monk's PrE, and ToD is the dark monk's attack. They hypothetically *could* be taken independent of each other, but they *never* are. Thus, they certainly can be lumped together.

[Tirisha]

A little more DPS? A little?

You do realize that the shroud speed records were set by groups full of dark monks with a healer and a caster, right? I dont think we are talking about a_little_bit_more DPS, heh.

Dark is significantly higher DPS than light. Light is the enabler of stun auto crit damage and utility PRE.

Most people will contend that a pure monk should only go handwraps. No other weapon compares. Adding short swords really didnt help but it didnt change anything either.

I think instead of making TOD work with short sword they should get some ability that ONLY works with short sword. It would be more of a choice then and not the best of both worlds all the time.

Well a little I admit is relative, it's certainly not that much more anymore and on devil bosses I'd contend that light monks are better dps with the right wraps. But I still contend that's it's insignificant compared too what the light punch and finishing moves provide.

the ability that they give Shortsword only would have to be extremely powerful to even consider using shortswords, even if TOD worked on shortswords you would be gimping yourself by using them at all.

[Tirisha]

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.

ToD was originally released as a single strike. There was no off hand attack with it. That single strike broke your attack chain, and that's exactly what was intended.
The changes to the combat system which introduced a % chance to hit with your off hand on every attack nullified the mechanism that made it a single strike.
It was broken.
The bug that allowed even more strikes with it was a completely separate and unrelated issue form that fact that it was never meant to strike more than once.
That specific bug only amplified the issue at hand.

Hmmm before the TWF nerf TOD did proc with your off hand and didn't break my attack chain when I used it. I'm curious were you got your information on that.

[Calebro]

Hmmm before the TWF nerf TOD did proc with your off hand and didn't break my attack chain when I used it. I'm curious were you got your information on that.

No it didn't.

[Tirisha]

They are the batman

Correction.

Batman is the Ninja

[HellsChaos]

while I agree that there was not enough outcry for light monks being gimped for the longest time, what we are seeing here is all those who went dark (bc light was not at par) realizing that dark path has some major flaws..and uselessness.
I agree with some of the additions suggested such as:
1. remove walk on water.
2. add wisdom damage bonuses
3. add shuriken specialization...that was an awesome suggestion and completely relevant to the concept of being a ninja
4. add additional sneak attack OR make a one hit 'coup de gras', which is something ninjas are good at (or something that doesnt require building way to much key and way over complicated to produce).

Anyway, thats just MHO.
On a side note, I am not very pleased with having to do combos in the first place...i think that if you got the required ki, just be able to use the ability...now this, of course, would reduce the effectiveness...but I would think that this trade off would make playing a monk more enjoyable and less crippling to the fingers! Arthritis is something I would like to avoid

[Tirisha]

No it didn't.

Hmm.... maybe I'm getting my Us mixed up can anybody else verify this?