Fundamental Problems with Mabar, Crystal Cove

[Zaodon]

I fully understand this. The point is not the "once" part, but the "limited number" part, because they're fundamentally the same. It doesn't matter if it's "once and done" or "five times and done" - either way botching a run forever penalizes you.

I also understand that he was not suggesting this be the case for all events (and it's asinine of you to suggest I implied he did). The point is that it's a fundamentally bad mechanic and should not be employed for any event, ever.

-Kernal

I guess you're having trouble understanding my suggestion.

Right now, this second, you get 5 days for this event, and then "its done." If you don't get your gear in those 5 days, you are SOL.

My idea changes nothing. You still get the exact same 5 days. Its just any 5 days once the event launches. It could be the first 5 days after launch. Or it could be 2 years later, for 5 days. Everyone gets the same 5 days, its just that the 5 days aren't restricted by the calendar.

Then, in addition to those 5 days, Turbine can provide ways to get more days. One idea is DDO Store, buying a "24 hr pass" for X points. Another is to "re-gift" X days to everyone's account to "re-celebrate" the Event.

So, the new event would launch and everyone would get 5 days to play it, to be used whenever they want. If a year goes by, Turbine can re-gift another 5 days to each account, and/or sell time in the DDO store.

So, tell me how this idea, IN ANY WAY, makes it any harder to get what you (YOU) want from the events of this kind?

[Eladiun]

Why do you think support-oriented players should be penalized for grouping?

Yes, I hate clerics and other support characters....bunch of no good pikers. I kid... you want details, sure.

1) Extensive Detailed Testing...consisting of one group of 6 over an hour. I'm glad you don't work for the FDA. All this point does is prove you do not understand random and that you do not understand testing. It's pandering to bring attention to points 2 and 3. Besides if you had detailed test results filling a bug report would be the way to address it.

2) There is nothing "casual" about this event (or Mabar for that matter). It requires hardcore, dedicated, nose-to-the-grindstone farming to obtain items, to then run the quest portion, to then get the rare items, to then buy the unique items.

That statement is totally false. You could buy a compass for 50 TP and run the event twice and have enough gems and doubloons to make a level 20 Tier 1 item. In the course of 6 hours a couple guildies had multiple level 20 items. The level 20 tier 1 items are the equivalent of raid loot. Any casual player would be ecstatic with the item as it would likely be the best item they own. A fully upgraded item does require a grind. It however is an EPIC item and therefore not casual. Casual != EPIC. The cove opens 20 minutes after it closes. It's extremely fast compared to previous events. There is almost unnoticeable grind to get the event going. A casual player could participate w/o leaving the dock. However, it's actually fun to kill in the instance tho. All the kill steal/off level stuff from Mabar has been addressed.

3) EVENT -something that happens or is regarded as happening; an occurrence, especially one of some importance.

This is a live event. The old live events lasted 3-6 hours or until someone sneak-humped a GM and they got angry and canceled the whole event. They were laggy. Only a few dozen people got the event prize out of thousands participating. This is a huge improvement and guarantees that anyone who want to participate get as reward.

Events happen for a short period and go away. It's why they are events. This isn't put in place so you can grind a couple of each item out. Pick and choose which ones you really want. Five days is long enough that anyone can grind out at least one event item for themselves.

So.../not signed

[Fundamental]

They should have called this, The Wail of the Necromancer Festival

lmfao wail ftw.

(Am I happy I got a 20 rolled Necro, yeah it's about g......... time!!!)

[Zero_Tolerance]

1. Awww, poor clerics are not getting coins from killing pirates. Just do Crystal Cove, more coins from turning in gems from there. Also, no cleric complaints during Mabar, right?
The problem with both events is that AoE killers like arcane and divine get most of the goodies. Maybe it is true that clerics got a bit shafted this time, in Mabar it wasn't that bad for them though. Think about melee, they should be crying.

2. Hardly a grind. All subjective of course, but if you can craft few lvl20 items in few hours, that's not a grind - that's a giveaway. Upgrades are more costly, and have to grind a bit. But for quality of items vs time needed to upgrade them - still a giveaway.

3. I don't know. If I don't go to friend's b-day party I don't really expect him to turn on my doorstep at the date I pick with cake and drink for me. Part of this being a special event is that time is limited, and dates are set. If you care, you will be there. If you don't, you won't get stuff. Really, just a question of priorities - game or real life. For some, real life wins. For others, there is no real life, only AFK.

[kernal42]

I think you're right. However, how would you solve the 'off-peak' problem?. Would you be opposed to
a time delay on when you can repeat the cove quest rather than the treasure map turn in?

I don't immediately see why entrance into the event needs to be tied with server turn-ins. I'm sure there's a good reason, but why not allow Cove entrance requiring only the compass?

-Kernal

[kernal42]

I guess you're having trouble understanding my suggestion.

Right now, this second, you get 5 days for this event, and then "its done." If you don't get your gear in those 5 days, you are SOL.

My idea changes nothing. You still get the exact same 5 days. Its just any 5 days once the event launches. It could be the first 5 days after launch. Or it could be 2 years later, for 5 days. Everyone gets the same 5 days, its just that the 5 days aren't restricted by the calendar.

Then, in addition to those 5 days, Turbine can provide ways to get more days. One idea is DDO Store, buying a "24 hr pass" for X points. Another is to "re-gift" X days to everyone's account to "re-celebrate" the Event.

So, the new event would launch and everyone would get 5 days to play it, to be used whenever they want. If a year goes by, Turbine can re-gift another 5 days to each account, and/or sell time in the DDO store.

So, tell me how this idea, IN ANY WAY, makes it any harder to get what you (YOU) want from the events of this kind?

I don't think you understand that I'm arguing against a different one of your suggestions, posed here:

My suggestion was something new: a non-repeatable quest. Or, repeatable a limited number of times, if you will. There is no such mechanic in DDO.

I don't see any glaring flaw with allowing players to choose their 5-day time window of when they want to participate. I don't see a huge reason why it should be done, other than catering to whatever population cannot play during the planned event time, and I do see a few reasons why maybe it's not a great idea.

1) The whole point of having an event is to get people playing the game. If you can put off participation in the event indefinitely, then there's no increased incentive for players to log on.
2) Again, this is an *event*. Regardless of what it does or does not correspond to IRL, this is something that happens in-game at one particular time. Does Macy's put on a special parade for you if you were out of town during theirs? No.
3) Allowing people to run when they want at off-planned times will relegate many of these players to running solo, as most other players will have completed their stay in the event as soon as possible. In your own words:

Saying "you should just solo" is not an acceptable answer for an event in an MMORPG. (MM stands for Massively Multiplayer).

Cheers,
Kernal

[Zaodon]

I don't think you understand that I'm arguing against a different one of your suggestions, posed here:

I don't see any glaring flaw with allowing players to choose their 5-day time window of when they want to participate.

Those are the same thing.

5 days of access to event is the same thing as 100 runs of the event. (or 200, or 500, whatever the number turns out to be.)

Giving you 5 days then cutting you off is 100% identical to saying you get a fixed number of runs, so long as the fixed number is large enough to average the same number of runs you'd do in 5 days.

Example:
- you have no life, you play DDO 18 hrs a day. In 5 days you can pull off 200 runs (40 runs per day).
- therefore, give each account a "200 runs credit" of Cove, and let it be open forever until you use up your 200 runs. The runs can be on the same char, diff chars, however you want to do it.

If you support the concept of a sliding 5-day window, then you support a fixed-runs-then-locked-out idea, since they are fundamentally the same thing. The nice thing is, regardless of whether its time or runs, Turbine can gift more time/runs to your account, and Turbine can sell more time/runs in the DDO store.

[kernal42]

Given the realistic scenario where you cannot play 24/7, they are not the same.

Example:
In a limited-use case, if you botch a run, that run is forever lost to you.
In a time-limited case, if you botch a run, you can play for another hour to make up for it.

Furthermore, considering the situation at hand in which cove openings are tied to player achievement (turning in map pieces), you can actually cause there to be more openings in a given time window.

-Kernal

[Quarterling]

How to win DDO:

1. Roll a Wizard or Sorc.
2. Grind.
3. Avoid playing other classes.

Um no. I have a level 20 wizard, and I find it tedious to gain doubloons when soloing. The enemies can't be targeted forcing you to do an AoE spell (otherwise you have to hit them with a melee weapon first). It's ruins it when I have to take a break and go back to the tavern to refill my sp. My rogue on the other hand, can just kill kill kill dps things to death and never has to take a break going to the tavern.

Plus, it's fun to kill-steal when other casters use an AoE and I can rush in and sweep up the kill.

[Zaodon]

Given the realistic scenario where you cannot play 24/7, they are not the same.

Example:
In a limited-use case, if you botch a run, that run is forever lost to you.
In a time-limited case, if you botch a run, you can play for another hour to make up for it.

Furthermore, considering the situation at hand in which cove openings are tied to player achievement (turning in map pieces), you can actually cause there to be more openings in a given time window.

-Kernal

Cove openings would not be tied to player turnins, per my entire suggested fix list.

[Khurse]

Seriously the limited playing time thing has got to be looked at.
Started a new project at work, so right now the only time I really have available to play is from 4:07AM until 4:17AM
It is completely unfair that I can't run the new event in a group,as well as TOD's and Shrouds (let alone Epic Wiz Kings) in 10 minutes.
Turbine could you please do something for those of us who simply don't have the time to play? Maybe just look at our playtime, and if we do only sign in for 10 minutes a day, we can have some sort of credit added to our account. With enough credits we can simply buy some of the loot drops from the various raids and/or Epics.
Oh and give us some free plat, it's completely unfair that someone who has more time to play can make more plat than I can.

I also admit I don't have a real cleric available to run the quest, but I think it's perfectly reprehensible that you should be forced to take at least a level 1 spell or melee an opponent in order to be able to gain a chance at coins.
The entire Birthday extravaganza should simply be an optional choice, if you want to run it fine, if you don't you should simply be able to choose whatever items you want for free.

After all, what lessons are we teaching our children if we continue to show them that things in life aren't always fair?
Turbine, Will you think of the Children?

[kernal42]

Cove openings would not be tied to player turnins, per my entire suggested fix list.

Incidentally, I was discussing the current mechanic in the "furthermore" comment, which is an implementation of the time-limited case. Regardless, it should still be clear that time-limited and run-limited are distinct.

[pie2655]

/signed

[donfilibuster]

They should have called this, The Wail of the Necromancer Festival

i gotta remind all divines that may think they are useless that destruction work as well as fod.
if DC fails do as arcanes do and take energy drain, for the island at least, not sure if it is blocked by dw on the cove.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

The people who are saying "clerics have offensive spells" and then refer to soundburst, don't get it. Neither do those who refer to CC. I was getting so few dubloons while healing and CC'ing AND meleeing on my 12/3 str based clonk that I finally just turned on my aura and did nothing but melee, maybe throw a mass cure every once in a while - my dubloon collection rate increased, but nothing remotely close to the level that my paladin was getting them. My paladin is a PD toon with a seperate economy - before anybody starts telling me to farm with him.

Also I have to kinda agree with the whole getting to run the events at an alternate time. I would love to have mabar wraps on my monk or my clonk, but by the next time the mabar event comes around I will be unable to participate, and probably the next year as well. Guess no mabar gear for me, like ever.

[Ungood]

1: /Not Signed.

Designed this way to stop pikers.

2: /Not Signed.

That is the nature of the game, and participating is a key factor in events.

3: /Not Signed.

Events should be just that, events. Open to all for a time. then closed down when the time is up.

[bryanmeerkat]

1) there is no such thing as a support class that cannot contribute offensively in DDO. not a problem. now, if you want to argue that there's a definite difference between, say, casters and the group of people known as "anything that isn't a caster", i might agree. but support classes? there's no such thing in DDO. the cleric is not a "support class", they're a class that could just choose to solo everything, but sometimes they let you come along and do some of the work. likewise with favored souls and even bards. even melees can hit multiple targets if they so choose (get yourself a two-handed weapon, cleave, improved precise shot, or just run around everywhere attacking). but pretty much, there are two types of people in this event: those who get the easy button, and those who can't cast wail of the banshee. 'support classes' are only further disadvantaged if they refuse to do anything other than support, since the option is there for them to help kill stuff.

Clerics are artificially nerfed in the Smugglers Cove part of the quest and there ability to solo is llimited at certain levels as they have no BB , which means they can only do expensive/ineffectual damage for those built to use BB as their primary dps.

[seobanio]

Giving you 5 days then cutting you off is 100% identical to saying you get a fixed number of runs, so long as the fixed number is large enough to average the same number of runs you'd do in 5 days.

Example:
- you have no life, you play DDO 18 hrs a day. In 5 days you can pull off 200 runs (40 runs per day).
- therefore, give each account a "200 runs credit" of Cove, and let it be open forever until you use up your 200 runs. The runs can be on the same char, diff chars, however you want to do it.

If you support the concept of a sliding 5-day window, then you support a fixed-runs-then-locked-out idea, since they are fundamentally the same thing.

I think you misunderstand the way incentives in an MMO work. Some players are casual and others are the 18 hours a day types. It is fine to be a casual player, RL is a good thing. But casual players should not expect the same level of success in the game (as measured by the L00tz) as the 18 hours / day player. Why? One because it would be extremely difficult to design and two because the point of a game is to entertain people and take up their time. Never ending desire for loot is how an MMO takes up your time, and players find satisfaction in being rewarded for their "work" in game. So the more time/work you put in, the more reward you get. Because of this giving everyone five days to run the event is not the same thing as giving newbies the opportunity to run the event as many times as the hardcore players run it in that time.

The implicit assumption behind how any MMO works, especially when it comes to events, is that the choice to not play is a choice to be less geared. That is an okay choice, but if you do not like that carrot/stick method of getting players than you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO.

[Eladiun]

I think you misunderstand the way incentives in an MMO work. Some players are casual and others are the 18 hours a day types. It is fine to be a casual player, RL is a good thing. But casual players should not expect the same level of success in the game (as measured by the L00tz) as the 18 hours / day player. Why? One because it would be extremely difficult to design and two because the point of a game is to entertain people and take up their time. Never ending desire for loot is how an MMO takes up your time, and players find satisfaction in being rewarded for their "work" in game. So the more time/work you put in, the more reward you get. Because of this giving everyone five days to run the event is not the same thing as giving newbies the opportunity to run the event as many times as the hardcore players run it in that time.

The implicit assumption behind how any MMO works, especially when it comes to events, is that the choice to not play is a choice to be less geared. That is an okay choice, but if you do not like that carrot/stick method of getting players than you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO.

Well stated. +1

[Inkblack]

The winter games (created for the olympics) have been turned on many times since. So, I know they will bring back Mabar, and even Cove, at later dates, which don't correspond to the original "date/event" they were designed to celebrate.

So, once you accept that the "event" will be brought back again "just because", its a simple leap to just say "hmm, ok, lets just introduce this into the game, change the mechanics, and leave it on."

My suggestion was something new: a non-repeatable quest. Or, repeatable a limited number of times, if you will. There is no such mechanic in DDO.

If you accept that most MMO's cannot produce content fast enough, then it is reasonable to extend that thought to "anything that is content should not be limited". I'm actually surprised that they do these limited time events -- and you have already pointed out that they occur much more often than the calendar indicates they probably should. If they are going to spend time producing something like this, then to get the most bang for the buck they need to let people continue to do it. I think it's a nice balance. If they are going to produce truly one time things, (like the tent explosion), then they wind up doing all that work and then anyone playing afterwards doesn't see it (until they introduce the Chronoscope).

EDIT: I see you've addressed what I wrote. Should have read the whole thread before responding!

Ink