Khopesh, waste of feat?

[Miahoo]

I was thinking lately...
Master touch scrolls are 20 UMD (base + 1d20) and cost 2-3pp each.

So.. should i exchange my Prof:Khopesh feat?

[Feithlin]

Master's Touch gives proficiency to martial weapons, not to exotic weapons.

[Club'in]

Master's Touch gives proficiency to martial weapons, not to exotic weapons.

And could be a little tricky holding the master's touch scroll and the weapon at the same time.

[Miahoo]

And could be a little tricky holding the master's touch scroll and the weapon at the same time.

well.. today: I put the weapon on the weapon sets (scroll on main-hand, weapon on off-hand), drag both scroll and weapon set to shortcuts. click the weapon set, click the scroll.

it works fine.

[KillEveryone]

And could be a little tricky holding the master's touch scroll and the weapon at the same time.

Only tricky with two handed weapons.

[ArloOne]

As stated, Khopesh is an exotic weapon. So you need to spend a feat slot on it. Master's Touch will only apply to martial weapons.

[Miahoo]

must have missed that. ty

[Paleus]

If you plan to use khopeshes, then you need to select the feat as master touch scrolls only offer martial proficiency and khopeshes are an exotic weapon as was pointed out above.

That said, it can be noted that the main source of the damage rogues do is in the sneak attack. Khopeshes are chosen on melee classes for their excellent crit range and multiplier combo, but since rogues are doing their main damage elsewhere khopeshes are not as overpowering a choice. That is to say, you'll do more damage with khopeshes, but you can probably get by without them if you are unable to fit in the feat.

Also, you will have rapier proficiency which have an excellent crit range for doing things like stat damaging and effects like banishing. Getting improved crit piercing and using picks when you want a high crit multiplier (aka held mobs) is a viable route, at least imo.

[Draccus]

That said, it can be noted that the main source of the damage rogues do is in the sneak attack.

That assumption is one of the biggest mistakes I see rogues make. Yes, there are situatuations where most of a rogue's damage comes from sneak attacks. There are also situations where ALL of a rogue's damage comes from base damage. But there are NO situations where base damage is not helpful.

You make it sound as if base damage and sneak attack damage are mutually exclusive. The "I don't need big base damage, I have sneak attacks" attitude makes for horrible rogues. When people reject rogues from groups because they don't think they do great DPS, it's rogues who ignore base damage because they have sneak attacks who perpetuate that thought.

The truth is that a point of base damage is no different from a point of sneak attack damage. In fact, you could argue effectively that a point of base damage is more important than a point of sneak attack damage. Why? Because a) base damage applies all the time b) base damage is multiplied by a crit and c) sneak attack immune monsters still take base damage.

All other things being equal, which is better? 25 + 80 or 45 + 80? Base damage matters. Lots. All rogues have good sneak attack damage. The killer rogues are the ones with the bigger base damage.

Khopeshes are a boost to damage. Period. Are they worth a feat? That's impossible to determine without knowing what feat was given up for the khopesh feat.

[Malky]

Khopeshes and Quick Draw give pretty much the same damage on bosses (on which you chain haste boosts back to back), but khopesh will get ahead in other situations. Of course you can have khops and quick draw at the same time, but you have to drop toughness for that... better have a good health pool outside of toughness for that.

[EKKM]

I think scrolls only do 1D3, x2 on a 20, I would stick with Khopesh

[Illiain]

While trying to determine if khopesh was better than scimitars for my elven FvS, I found a really simple calculation to determine damage.

Everyone should know of the 25 vs 27 hits over 20 swings method. Well when you include racial/class bonuses to weapons such as scimitars/rapiers it changes a bit.

So the breakpoint is "When is X+Y*25 lower than X*27"?

X=damage bonus applied to both weapons (Str, PA, Enhancement, Favor, Morale...)
Y=damage bonuses only applied to a specific weapon. (racial, class feats...)

With an elven FvS, they can get a +6 damage just for scimitar, that they can't apply to khopesh. Lower the bonus to 5, because of the change in average damage from scimitar to khopesh. (greensteel is 4.5 vs 5.5) This means X is 57. You need to have a +57 bonus to damage for khopesh to equal the damage a scimitar can deal over 20 swings. Obviously this breaks down fast when including autocrits, but in that case heavy picks are better.

So applying this to rogues that have specific weapon bonuses, you need to figure out if your X (elven/drow using rapiers) and if your racial bonus does more than what a khopesh can deal. This means you're using X+1*25 vs X*27, because of the difference in average damage from base weapons. The breakpoint is +7. This is where the weapons deal exactly the same amount of damage. This would require only a +5 weapon and a +2 str bonus, which every rogue should exceed.

But, because of the additional point of damage, the change takes much longer to make a significant difference. So it's up to the player to decide if the feat is worth the slight edge in damage. A more typical situation would be a 30str rogue with PA and a +5 weapon, having a +20 damage bonus. This results in a 662.5 damage over 20 swings vs a 688.5 damage over 20 swings. It's not a large difference but enough for the min/maxers to warrant using the feat.

[Kinerd]

While trying to determine if khopesh was better than scimitars for my elven FvS, I found a really simple calculation to determine damage.

Everyone should know of the 25 vs 27 hits over 20 swings method. Well when you include racial/class bonuses to weapons such as scimitars/rapiers it changes a bit.

So the breakpoint is "When is X+Y*25 lower than X*27"?

X=damage bonus applied to both weapons (Str, PA, Enhancement, Favor, Morale...)
Y=damage bonuses only applied to a specific weapon. (racial, class feats...)

It's also good to keep in mind that Str only applies half to off-hand. For the 30 Str rogue you describe this closes the gap from 26 to 16. Weapons with elemental bursts can widen the gap, but they might not be relevant for rogues, and alignment bursts favor the scimitar/rapier.

[Illiain]

It's also good to keep in mind that Str only applies half to off-hand. For the 30 Str rogue you describe this closes the gap from 26 to 16. Weapons with elemental bursts can widen the gap, but they might not be relevant for rogues, and alignment bursts favor the scimitar/rapier.

Exactly, so the racial enhancements have a higher impact with offhand hits and because we're speaking about rogues, enchants such as Rad2 close that gap even further. Rad2's deal the extra 4d6 on any crit, so that's +24d6 (78 average) over 20 swings with rapier vs +16d6 (56 average) over 20 swings with khopesh. The vorpal +4d6 is a wash because both sides gain that.

All totaled, I will say that yes khopesh is a higher damage weapon. Is it high enough to warrant using a feat? That's up to the specific player. The difference between khopesh and rapiers is very slim, being 1-2 extra points per hit if you have racial bonuses to rapier. If you group with arcanes that regularly toss mass holds in raids, then khopesh is well worth the feat with the time you save not swapping out weapons. If you mostly do epics, then khopesh is a waste.

[hermespan]

While trying to determine if khopesh was better than scimitars for my elven FvS, I found a really simple calculation to determine damage.

Everyone should know of the 25 vs 27 hits over 20 swings method. Well when you include racial/class bonuses to weapons such as scimitars/rapiers it changes a bit.

So the breakpoint is "When is X+Y*25 lower than X*27"?

X=damage bonus applied to both weapons (Str, PA, Enhancement, Favor, Morale...)
Y=damage bonuses only applied to a specific weapon. (racial, class feats...)

With an elven FvS, they can get a +6 damage just for scimitar, that they can't apply to khopesh. Lower the bonus to 5, because of the change in average damage from scimitar to khopesh. (greensteel is 4.5 vs 5.5) This means X is 57. You need to have a +57 bonus to damage for khopesh to equal the damage a scimitar can deal over 20 swings. Obviously this breaks down fast when including autocrits, but in that case heavy picks are better.

So applying this to rogues that have specific weapon bonuses, you need to figure out if your X (elven/drow using rapiers) and if your racial bonus does more than what a khopesh can deal. This means you're using X+1*25 vs X*27, because of the difference in average damage from base weapons. The breakpoint is +7. This is where the weapons deal exactly the same amount of damage. This would require only a +5 weapon and a +2 str bonus, which every rogue should exceed.

But, because of the additional point of damage, the change takes much longer to make a significant difference. So it's up to the player to decide if the feat is worth the slight edge in damage. A more typical situation would be a 30str rogue with PA and a +5 weapon, having a +20 damage bonus. This results in a 662.5 damage over 20 swings vs a 688.5 damage over 20 swings. It's not a large difference but enough for the min/maxers to warrant using the feat.

What happens if you take (greater if you have WS) weapon specialization instead of khopesh?
It pretty much evens out in your situation.

+1
Too many people assume that widely held notions apply to them without running _their_ numbers... You can disprove most of them as end all be all truths, in niche situations, especially when there are very high strength numbers and racial enhancement bonuses.

[Miahoo]

That assumption is one of the biggest mistakes I see rogues make.

I fully agree.
Was about to say the same, but I didnt wanna go OT, as it can be discussed for 100pages.
+1 for u for reading my minds.

I already have Khopeshes.. I'm lvl 18 rog, and i LOVE my damage.

I was about to take quick draw. but i'll keep the khopeshes prof until i'll get myself enough to-hit (and maybe even after as i just hate to see this scary exclamation mark ).

[Draccus]

I fully agree.
Was about to say the same, but I didnt wanna go OT, as it can be discussed for 100pages.
+1 for u for reading my minds.

I already have Khopeshes.. I'm lvl 18 rog, and i LOVE my damage.

I was about to take quick draw. but i'll keep the khopeshes prof until i'll get myself enough to-hit (and maybe even after as i just hate to see this scary exclamation mark ).

I'm actually a rapier user. I have six dual-shard greensteels that I'm not going to toss for khopeshes. The equation does get a bit muddier with my specific situation as well. First, I'm a drow so my +2 rapier bonus reduces the khopesh advantage. Second, as a TR'd rogue, the extra feat allows me to take the fantastic Sneak of Shadows feat.

So combine +2 damage with rapiers and 3 minutes of +10 to sneak attack damage and the khopesh isn't as attractive. I haven't run the numbers (but I will after typing this) but I wouldn't be surprised if Drow + Rapier + SoS > Khopesh.

That being said...base damage matters!!!

[grodon9999]

I haven't run the numbers (but I will after typing this) but I wouldn't be surprised if Drow + Rapier + SoS > Khopesh.

I have run the numbers, and you are right.

[Miahoo]

Drow + Rapier + SoS > Khopesh.

well.. i'm not a drow (and i dont like drows really.. as imho any 32build > drow)

and Khopesh + SoS > Rapier + SoS for any race. so i go human for my extra feat.

btw.. my tempest is a drow using rapiers...

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I'm actually a rapier user.

With SoS, I am strongly considering respeccing my old Mod8 15 Rogue/1 Fighter Halfling khopesh rogue, into a pure 20 Rapier user.

That capstone is just too much for me to pass up. Yes his damage was disgustingly good with the Khop, but it will also be disgustingly good with Rapiers, even on Halfling. Especially RadII's on trash. Or RadII/LitII combo.