Ninja is a Monk PrE?

[Alektronic]

Let me begin by stating that I love DDO. It's a great game in many respects, and I've always loved how d&d tied together the various aspects of history, lore, and fantasy all under one roof. I also would like to state beforehand, that I know this issue has been brought up before (at least once) in a different form.

That being said, why is ninja a monk PrE? If we had to put it anywhere, shouldn't it be under the rogue class? From a Western perspective, I can understand the monk class is just "anything asian". Monks get to use all those other weps and have all those quasi-magical ki abilities, not to mention supernatural acrobatic abilities. But from an Eastern perspectives, it makes no sense to associate ninjas (sterotyped Japanese assassin) with monk (Buddhist/Daoist master of martial arts).

Ninjas were the original Japanese assassin. They are associated with secular organizations, poison, tricks, booby traps, stealth, dirty tricks, etc... Monks (as conceptualized in DDO) come in part from Japanese folklore with strong elements of Chinese martial arts. They are traditionally associated with monastaries/temples, meditation, healing, purity, truth, etc... There is also plenty of folklore to back up the idea of "evil monks" (those bent towards destruction or dominion).

I just don't understand how you can subcategorize these two elements. The closest analogy I can think of is creating a new PrE like artificer under the existing favored soul class, and maybe that's not bad enough because there are no/less cultural connotations. At the end of the day, this is just a game, but I think the inaccurate categorization of ninja under monk (rather than say rogue... or maybe fighter), has led to alot of gameplay problems, such as the synergy of shortswords w/ unarmed fighting; the relative "uselessness" of kamas, staves, and shurikens; or prevalence of monk/rogue multiclassed builds for "true ninja flavor".

I'm curious how people feel about this, and also, how many asians play this game. I will continue playing monks, ninjas, etc. in game because I love the concept. But I also feel that ninja spy is taking the place of a potentially much more apt and cool monk PrE (maybe Monk of Long Death? ionno, I don't play tabletop).

[DevHead]

I think they're going off of the better athletic abilities.

Besides....rogues have Assassin.

[ZaxisDakmorr]

I believe they trying to follow the Pen and Paper DnD rules where by monks can take a ninja prestige class.(Ninja of the Crescent Moon me thinks).

[Hyrvana]

I can see what your getting at, its a mistranslation of information when comparing the game world with the real world. But thats exactly it, the game world has its own background its own history, it doesn't have the real worlds history, yes much of the game is influenced by real world history/culture but its just an influence not a copy. So in real life monks are not ninjas but in DDO they can be.

[Alektronic]

I googled up Ninja of the Crescent Moon (as much as I could find. I guess copyright is pretty tight w/ the W*****), and I liked the idea. As far as that monk prestige class went, there was a bit of background to justify it.

Like I said, it's a game, and we can accept some departures from reality, but some deviations are gonna require an explanation. If I want to create a cleric that casts arcane spells, this idea is divorced from traditional stereo/archetypes, so I must make a new concept ie Theurge, practiced caster, w/e.

Coming from a non pnp background, I appreciated Ninja Spy less maybe, than someone who knew that ninja originally was its own base class, and that ninja was an added PrE for monk with an entirely different background/bio to support it. Along these lines, there should be a blurb/questline/something to help out us players who get a big "???" when we see ninja as the epitome of a dark monk. It might just come down to lack of context, but it just hits my cultural insensitivity bone to see monks running around as ninjas without any type of setting (RL or fantasized) to support it.

[Kevorkian]

Friar Tuck has a bone to pick with you, and wishes to duel by Quarterstave on the old log over the river.


Very culturally short sighted of you to assume monks are only Buddist or Chinese.

Now in all seriousness.
Historically ninja and Shintao would come from different geographical regions but I can see ninja falling under monks based on abilities, resistances, and the fact that they are martial arts warriors (or a subset thereof).

Basically ninjas are adepts rather than religious warriors. Their temple is the body and the control of it. Slow Fall, Special Strikes (Magic, Adamantine, Lawful, etc.), Flurry of Blows, Shadow Walk, Immunity to Poison, etc. By being so focused on control of themselves, they reach a higher level of consciousness (by technically becoming an outsider). So game mechanically I see ninja fitting under the monk umbrella better than rogue.