Ranger Tweaks and rebalancing

[sephiroth1084]

I'd like to see a 20% increase in base ranged speed, drop the capstone boost to 5% and have it apply to both melee and ranged attack speed.

This would make it worthwhile to drop that level of rogue and monk and make the capstone as useful to melee rangers as it is to ranged rangers.

That would make the most sense to me... I think they over did it with the U5 speed nerf. -5% would have put rangers in line with everyone else, somewhere near the middle of the top dps list, -10% *emasculated* Tempest III.

I like this.

In addition to the increase in bow rate of fire, I'd like the devs to finally get to the route of the issue where archery gets about 50% of most speed increases and fix it, so that effects that are supposed to increase RoF by X% instead of by X/2%.

[Brennie]

I like this.

In addition to the increase in bow rate of fire, I'd like the devs to finally get to the route of the issue where archery gets about 50% of most speed increases and fix it, so that effects that are supposed to increase RoF by X% instead of by X/2%.

Speculation is that the reload/reach-into-your-quiver animation is unaffected by attack speed increases, leaving you with only a 50% increase in attack speed from all sources.

However, this may be an intentional effect of the "Ranged nerf" from wayyyy early in the game. perhaps this is how they made ranged combat scale less due to BaB, and had unintentional (or intentional) effects on everything else.

I do agree, however, that *when* ranged combat get an overhaul, the system needs to be adjusted so that attack speed increases work as described. This may require some benefits, such as the ranger capstone, be nerfed or rewritten... but atleast we'd get some honest numbers!

Speaking of honest numbers, I'd like to have a chat with whoever is supposed to make sure the in-game text descriptions match the effects they supposedly reference (Superior Inferno/Ardor/Magnetism etc have been wrong for OVER A YEAR now! And there are several other "Tweaked things, like the Paladin spell Zeal, which have old outdated descriptions). /offtopic

[sephiroth1084]

Speculation is that the reload/reach-into-your-quiver animation is unaffected by attack speed increases, leaving you with only a 50% increase in attack speed from all sources.

However, this may be an intentional effect of the "Ranged nerf" from wayyyy early in the game. perhaps this is how they made ranged combat scale less due to BaB, and had unintentional (or intentional) effects on everything else.

I do agree, however, that *when* ranged combat get an overhaul, the system needs to be adjusted so that attack speed increases work as described. This may require some benefits, such as the ranger capstone, be nerfed or rewritten... but atleast we'd get some honest numbers!

I think you're correct in your assessment, but I don't much care about the why at this point. It just needs to get fixed. Whether that means changing the code on the full animation so that haste effects affect the whole thing properly, or by doubling the effect of such things on just the shooting portion to overcome an inability to have it apply to the reload animation, or by increasing ranged RoF past where it should be without Haste and such in order to have alacrity effects bring archery to where it should be overall. It just needs to GET DONE!

[Brennie]

I think you're correct in your assessment, but I don't much care about the why at this point. It just needs to get fixed. Whether that means changing the code on the full animation so that haste effects affect the whole thing properly, or by doubling the effect of such things on just the shooting portion to overcome an inability to have it apply to the reload animation, or by increasing ranged RoF past where it should be without Haste and such in order to have alacrity effects bring archery to where it should be overall. It just needs to GET DONE!

I agree. Archery needs an overhaul.

I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread sicne the event. I got distracted by Kobolds, Torches, and pretty crystals. However, i had some interesting discussions with several PUGers, when the subject of enemy-type came up (Mostly around Ratkiller, since that was often a popular topic, since most people believed rats to be Vermin). In all those groups, i mentioned that i had a Suggestion thread that suggested an overhaul to the Favored Enemy/Bane Weapon system, and mentioned details such as combining vermin/animal/magical beast into one category. And you know what? Not a single person disagreed. Infact, many people really liked the idea! Even hardcore DnD purists I talke dto, people who were adamant about game balance, people who disliked "tweaks and changes" in favor of new content all tended to agree that this kind of adjustment would strongly benefit teh system as a whole.

In that light, I am adding to this Suggestion thread in hopes that it reaches new eyes, gets more feedback, more discussion, and hopefully some attention from someone who makes actual descisions about DDO development (Or someone who's job it is to pass on good suggestion ideas to someone who makes actual descisions about DDO development).

[sephiroth1084]

Here's hoping!

On that topic, though, it would be interesting if some of these categories ended up getting affected by bane weapons as well! Maybe something in the same sub-category could take half damage, but get the full attack bonus or something?

[OverlordOfRats]

Rangers need a toughness enhancement line.

Barbarians, fighters, and paladins all have it.

[Brennie]

Here's hoping!

On that topic, though, it would be interesting if some of these categories ended up getting affected by bane weapons as well! Maybe something in the same sub-category could take half damage, but get the full attack bonus or something?

If the Favored Enemies consolidation makes the Favored Enemy groups roughly even, i se eno reason why bane weapons couldn't use the new FE categorizing system. Currently, bane weapons have most of the same flaws as FE - Some are useful, and some are useless. Uncommon, weak enemy groups like Gnolls or Plants are usually vendortrash, while tough, common enemies like Evil Outsider and Undead are usually prized possesions.

There are discrepancies, though. For one thing, you are not limited to the number of bane weapons you can have. With a consolidated list, a character could have 10 Greater Bane weapons that affect 99% of the game's content. Also, currently, some terrible FE groups actually make half-decent bane weapons (Like dragon, since you can bank it until you run Tor or Von6, but those enemies are tough enough to warrant the extra damage; or Reptile. which is easily the most common enemy in the Harbor, and so in the harbor level range a very useful and versatile bane weapon).

Ultimately, I'd be for bane following suit with Favored Enemy consolidation, but I think we'd need to see how it worked out balance-wise before letting it stay in permenantly.

Rangers need a toughness enhancement line.

Barbarians, fighters, and paladins all have it.

Good point. Ranger is one of your 4 full BaB DPS classes, and so it is kind of odd that they'd be lacking the same toughness enhancements. However, Rangers do get evasion and a few other goodies that make them pretty survivable at slightly lower HP totals (Which I am assuming is the current justification for their lack of toughness). That said, Rangers do melee, and melee need to be able to take a few hits. Since rangers are the squishiest of the full BaB classes, toughness enhancement line would certainly help.

[Brennie]

Just adding a new post to let people know the OP has been updated to include the suggestions added to this thread that i really thought stood out.

More suggestions and feedback is always welcome!

[Aelonwy]

Totally agree with fixing rate of fire. I also like your re-grouping of FE... although plants and oozes only kind-of fit with aberrations... they're an odd fit anywhere you might choose. Seems actually weird or nonsensical that there isn't a choice of capstone for ranger in particular because ranger PrE's and playstyle are almost diametrically opposed to each other. Not that you can't build for one and take some advantage of the other... its just that the current capstone only really benefits a ranged-style ranger, and even then with the broken rate of fire not enough to be worth it.

Ranger levels 1-12 really don't need any help once rate of fire is fixed, and IF favored enemies are regrouped. But I agree some change to Tempest III would decrease the gap. I think i liked the suggestion to add full strength to the offhand for TIII best. No other PrE has that option. I would not be disinclined for TIII to receive a small atk speed boost either, say only 5% passively or an atk speed boost that they have to activate with x number of charges per rest with cool down of x seconds, kudos to whomever coined multihit.

A short class toughness line, of at least I & II should be added but really no further; afterall they are a specialist class. It will be easier for the devs to insert new druid spells into the ranger spell book than to create all new unique ones for rangers. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't... if only a few unique and USEFUL spells came to rangers that would increase their overall usefulness in group-play.

As to bane weapons being altered by the regrouping of favored enemies.... thats something I would enjoy myself... it would decrease inventory clutter (something most of us who like to be prepared have trouble with), it would decrease the amount of surperfluous junk on the loot tables, it would decrease backpack weight (not a terrible issue but certainly a problem on dex-based halflings). However, it would alter the properties of many named weapons, not to mention the complications that would arise with the new crafting system. So because of all the work that would go into retroactively changing things... I don't see bane weapons changing even IF favored enemies got regrouped.

I'd like to say thats my two cents but i think it more like a dollar and some change.

[tricnic]

Based on what I have read on this and other threads about Manyshot improvements, here is my consolidation and take on those recommendations.


First, some notes about what I have seen in game, having played high level AAs, both Ranger and Elven/Helf:


Manyshot is nice for that extra burst damage, but can easily be wasted. Popping it for a group of enemies and still having 5-10 seconds left when everything is down.

There is about a 2 second delay between when you activate Manyshot and when you can start attacking again. 2 seconds of every Manyshot is completely wasted every time!

Based on a number of trials, a character with a 20 BAB gets approximately 1.5 APS (Attacks per Second) with a 1-handed or 2-handed weapon (Not factoring in TWF) whereas a longbow gets ~1 APS. In other words, 1-handed and 2-handed weapons attack 50% faster. 50% is a huge number.

Manyshot has a 2 min cool down, and only lasts 20 seconds (2 of which are wasted right off the bat). On the other hand, you essentially get a 300% speed boost. Taking this into account, at roughly 1 APS, over a 2 min length of time, you get 120 attacks (base) + 3*18 (18 seconds of 3 extra shots) = 174 attacks.

1-handed and 2-handed get 1.5 * 120 = 180 attacks. This seems pretty fair until you take into effect that 2-handed weapons benefit from not only Str damage, but Power Attack as well. A GS Bow in the hands of a pure Ranger with a 30 Str would do a max of 25 damage per hit[15 (1D10+5) + 10 damage (Not counting enhancement procs)] Whereas a GS Great Axe in the hands of a Horc Barb with full PA enhancements and a 30 Str would do 55 damage per hit [23 (3D6+5) + 32 (10 Str, 10 PA, 12 PA Enhancements)]. That right there is over double the damage over a 2 min length of time before you take into effect flaming, maiming, etc..

In other words, 15% of the time, the Ranger will do double the damage of the melee with a 2-handed weapon (25 *4 per hit as opposed to 55 per hit). The other 85% of the time, the 2-hander will do 3 times as much damage. (3 hits melee for every 2 ranged at double the damage per hit)

Yes, ranged get Imp Precise Shot, which can hit 10+ mobs easily, but a properly specced 2-hander can hit 10+ mobs bunched up around him as well for darn near full damage + procs. (This is easier to set up than getting 10 mobs in a row.)



Ok, now that the commentary is done, my recommendations:


Ranged attack speed should scale better with BAB. 10% increase to speed per 5 BAB beyond 5 BAB would give a 30% increase (at 20 BAB) in rate of fire. With the significantly reduced max damage of a bow, this speed increase wouldn't be over powered. This would also reward those that don't splash classes with 3/4 or 1/2 BAB progression.

Decrease the cool down of Manyshot to 90 seconds. (Manyshot could be active 22% of the time, instead of 15%)

Impose a -2 to-hit penalty per each arrow fired (-8 at 20 BAB) while Manyshot is active. (While it has little effect on most trash, this can have an effect on high difficulty bosses late game and in Epics.)

Impose a -30% speed penalty to ranged attacks while Manyshot is active. (Bringing it back down to about 1 APS.)

Eliminate the delay after activating Manyshot before you can resume attacking. (Much like they are doing with Cleave in Update 9)


Like I said before, these are not all my original ideas. This is a compilation, specification, and tweaking of what has already been stated.

[tricnic]

I don't know if anyone has proposed this before:

Why not change Manyshot to be a 6 second cool down that fires 2-4 arrows (scaled by BAB)?

You would get 20 uses in a 2 min time frame, which would give you the exact same number of extra arrows as you would get from 20 seconds of Manyshot as it is, but you get to decide when each of those shots goes out.

Granted, this would eliminate the burst damage of the Manyshot, but it would smooth out the damage curve, making for better sustained DPS. I, for one, would prefer to be able to decide when each of those shots is fired, instead of popping Manyshot and potentially wasting half or more of it because there's nothing to shoot at.

This would more closely emulate the way Manyshot works in Pen & Paper, which the D&D Purists would like.

[Gabriel_Black]

My main being an Arcane Archer I am very familiar with the woes of finding a pug at high levels. It's not impossible mind you but I do tend to notice groups with the little ranger box missing from the lfm. Even if they are allowing rangers they usually turn down a 20 ranger because they know a 20 ranger is probably an archer. It's kind of like being the red-headed step child of the red-head step child.

I would like to propose a mix of some of the suggestions here with my own tweaks.

Make "Rapid Shot" a toggled ability that gives you an extra attack with a -2 to hit penalty as in PnP. I believe after the TWF fix this would be a doublestrike chance now.

Make "Manyshot" a toggled ability that allows 1-4 arrows per shot (based on BaB) at -2 to hit per arrow as in PnP. Have a "Manyshot I", "Manyshot II" etc... to allow the player to select the amount of arrows and hence the penalty they wish to have active.

Remove the ability to imbue Slaying arrows. Add the slaying effect to the True Strike Ability and remove the vorpal requirement.

Add "Greater Manyshot" as a toggled ability to allow multiple enemies to be hit with Manyshot. Make it a random targeting within a cone in the direction the archer is facing. Terrible for high end use but great when clearing trash when agro is not an issue.

[murf201]

Theres many routes they can take on improving ranged . Increasing attack rate to scale with the level . Fixing the way ranged alacrity works and actually giving us our said bonuses . Making manyshot a toggle on and off ability with its said penalties . Making arrows have a double strike percentage that's deactivated during manyshot . Personally in my opinion which comes from playing an AA as my main for 2 years . I would hope for my alacrity to scale with my level . As well as alacrity items performing like they should , Maybe throw some type of tactical feats in for ranged to give the playstyle some flavor . On another note why do we AA pre's get shafted on our tod sets as well as weopon/item creation . I mean competance to attack +2 and an alacrity bonus of 10% which is really like 4.5% . Ohh yeah 2 quivers = joke , Most of the bows are jokes , windhowlers are kool but why do melee get something just as good at level 5 and we wait till 13 . And the melee version has the option of going epic . Ohh yeah the wind howler bracers plus 1 damage does not stack with ship buffs .

[tricnic]

Interesting ideas, Gabriel.

Make "Rapid Shot" a toggled ability that gives you an extra attack with a -2 to hit penalty as in PnP. I believe after the TWF fix this would be a doublestrike chance now.

I really like this idea. Instead of a hardly noticeable attack speed increase, having the 2nd attack would be nice. If it is a double-strike chance, it'd better be a high one. Perhaps even increase with BAB. i.e. 20% at 1 BAB, 40% at 6 BAB, 60% at 11 BAB, 80% at 16 BAB, and 100% at 20 BAB. (Again, rewarding those that take the full BAB progression classes. Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin)

Make "Manyshot" a toggled ability that allows 1-4 arrows per shot (based on BaB) at -2 to hit per arrow as in PnP. Have a "Manyshot I", "Manyshot II" etc... to allow the player to select the amount of arrows and hence the penalty they wish to have active.

Making Manyshot a toggled ability could be unbalanced. The -2 to -8 to hit probably isn't enough to balance out the +100 to +300% damage output. End game, the -8 to hit can hurt, but with as easy as it it to get high to-hit, I would think that -8 can be easily overcome. It is worth testing, though. I could be wrong.

Remove the ability to imbue Slaying arrows. Add the slaying effect to the True Strike Ability and remove the vorpal requirement.

With the way vorpal is changing in update 9, I'd like to see the Slaying Arrows act exactly like a vorpal weapon. (100 damage on above 1000 HP, instant death below 1000 HP)

Add "Greater Manyshot" as a toggled ability to allow multiple enemies to be hit with Manyshot. Make it a random targeting within a cone in the direction the archer is facing. Terrible for high end use but great when clearing trash when agro is not an issue.

Multiple enemies can be hit with Manyshot when combined with Imp Precise Shot. A cone attack effect sounds interesting, albeit a bit odd to picture in my mind.

[murf201]

Idk about that whole slayer changed to the way vorpal works idea that would severly gimp an AA's damage output especially on red names , and uncritable mobs

[murf201]

[QUOTE=Gabriel_Black;3747979]"Remove the ability to imbue Slaying arrows. Add the slaying effect to the True Strike Ability and remove the vorpal requirement."

How would you implement the slayer ability into the true strike ability ? A little more specific .

[phum]

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• Ranged overhaul. We all know is needs doing, so just do it. This would help both AA and Tempest, since Tempest do whip out a bow now and again. Suggestions i have are an overall increase in ranged attack speed, while tweaking manyshot to impose an attack speed penalty while active (Enough so that it still out DPSes normal ranged combat, but isn't 4x as much for 20 seconds.) This would help Balance manyshot against the new faster attack speeds, as well as making manyshot function slightly closer to how it does in PnP IE once per round. Hopefully that would mean Ranged specced rangers felt more comfortable ranging in most situations, and manyshot would be a "nice boost" but not "the only time ranging is worthwhile".

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Nice ideas overall. Just thought to point out that increasing ranged usability IMO would need to be combined with some changes to hate generated with ranged i.e. the hate should be decreased accordingly. Hate/dmg seems quite high and I think possibly (ok maybe the dps issue is even more so) the most important reason as to why ranged is .. well you know

[Brennie]

Loving the new ideas!

Manyshot as a truestrike-esque single-shot, low cooldown clicky sounds interesting. However, I would only want to see this after a range overhaul, since its nice to be able to use ranged for 20 seconds then pull out melee weapons when you know your ranged damage just won't be up to par.

Manyshot as a toggle seems overpowered. Infact, manyshot needs to be significantly re-tooled if a ranged pass is ever to come, due entirely to the fact that id range ever becomes "Decent damage", then four times "Decent damage" will be "***bbqlolbroken". A perma-toggle would be insane, regardless of the to-hit penalty.

Slaying arrows would also probably need to be re-tooled for a ranged pass. However, it already has a lot going against it - It only occurs on 20s in one large clump of damage, which can be either redundant (With new smiters/banishers/disruptors being instakills) or severe overkill (With X Blast greensteel, windhowler bracers, high crit damage etc). Couple that with the fact that it does not increase damage on rolls of 2-19 and it becomes a streaky, unreliable source of damage. The Vorpal idea is an interesting one, but brings up its own set of problems, not least of which is the major downgrade against non-vorpallable enemies/raid bosses/etc.

I really like the idea of a cone attack, especially a limited range (think cone of cold) one-shot on a truestrike like timer! Granted, in my view this would require an entirely new feat or be part of a PrE line, but it could be a fun way for an archer to contribute to a different role than most weapon-based combatants - Full scale AoE damage in line or cone format. Only to be attempted with a good intimidater though !

I'm ambivalent on the Rapid Shot tweak. Rapid shot does what it intends to do pretty well right now, and a toggle that is essential 2x damage seems unbalancing. Additionally, attack speed is better than doublestrike in most situations, since doublestrike is unreliable and has a larger tendency to overkill, and less ability to monitor damage (Can you imagine a doublestrike'd slayer arrow proc when trying to prep a boss in Shroud 2? Yipes!). However, if doublestrike would be easier on the engine, and would allow better balancing in a ranged pass, I'm all for it!

I love the ranged speed tweaks suggestions (Though I'm rather confused why you want manyshot to have a huge to hit penalty AND be 1 attack per second... wouldn't that cancel out any benefit o_O or is that one x4 attack per second?). The nuts and bolts of teh ideas all seem solid, and most suggestions really revolve around speeding up ranged combat, while trying to pull manyshot more in-line with a better balanced ranged overhaul. Fantastic!

Good suggestions, great feedback, keep this one alive!

[tricnic]

Slaying arrows would also probably need to be re-tooled for a ranged pass. However, it already has a lot going against it - It only occurs on 20s in one large clump of damage, which can be either redundant (With new smiters/banishers/disruptors being instakills) or severe overkill (With X Blast greensteel, windhowler bracers, high crit damage etc). Couple that with the fact that it does not increase damage on rolls of 2-19 and it becomes a streaky, unreliable source of damage. The Vorpal idea is an interesting one, but brings up its own set of problems, not least of which is the major downgrade against non-vorpallable enemies/raid bosses/etc. ... (Can you imagine a doublestrike'd slayer arrow proc when trying to prep a boss in Shroud 2? Yipes!)

Of course, one probably shouldn't be using slaying arrows when prepping a boss anyway, but I see your point here. The Slaying Arrow in PnP was intended to be a one-shot-kill ability, but in DDO, by the time you get it, 500 damage is not going to make for a one shot kill (Except on the level 1 kobolds at the beginning of Enter the Kobold, but what isn't?). I really think Slaying Arrow should have been a Vorpal weapon-like effect to begin with.

(Though I'm rather confused why you want manyshot to have a huge to hit penalty AND be 1 attack per second... wouldn't that cancel out any benefit o_O or is that one x4 attack per second?)

By 1 attack per second, I meant one attack cycle per second. Each cycle would still get the 2-4 arrows fired.

[Gabriel_Black]

Let me clarifiy my ideas.

Rapid Shot: In PnP it is an extra attack. I would rather have the extra attack than a speed increase where I can't even notice the effect. I only mentioned double strike because I thought that was the route they went with multiple attacks. Now since I think about it, it was the offhand proc chance and not a double strike.

Manyshot: I like the toggle abilitity because it is like it's PnP counter part. You can choose when to use it and it is not limited. I don't think it would be over powered. That is why I suggested the removal of the ability to imbue slaying arrows. permenant manyshot with slaying arrows would be overpowered without question.

True strike: No one uses this. I didn't want to give up the slaying arrows so I thought adding the slaying effect to the true strike abiltiy would be a good idea. Removing the vorpal requirement was only meant to mean that it would take effect when clicked. I didn't want it to also require a natural 20 like a vorpal effect does. overall I was just thinking a clicky that gives you a +20 to hit and if it hits then the target is effected by the slaying arrow ability. Keep the timer at 30 seconds or adjust it to whatever is balanced.

Greater Manyshot: I know you can use improved precise shot to shoot through enemies but that is only if you can talk them into lining up for you. The PnP version allows you to have multiple targets while using manyshot. Since you can't actually target multiple enemies I suggested it be random in a cone in front of the archer. Not really a deal breaker but just a nice utility ability I thought.

To be honest I think if all these changes were added, It would be on par with a dark monk. My monk damage scrolls pretty fast at a consistent pace. Manyshot does hit a bit faster but it has a pause between shots. The monk gets Touch of death every 15 seconds which can hit multiple times. The archer would have a single slaying arrow every 30 seconds (if unchanged, although I think 15 would be fine).