"El Matador" Half-Elf Rogue 20 with Paladin Dilettante

[ComradeAdrock]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page

El Matador 
Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 200
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 23
Will: 8

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             12                 14                   14
Dexterity            16                 23                   28
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         14                 16                   18
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             14                 16                   17

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               4                  9                   15
Bluff                 7                 26                   26
Concentration         3                  3                    3
Diplomacy             7                 26                   26
Disable Device        7                 27                   27
Haggle                3                  4                    4
Heal                  0                  0                    0
Hide                  8                 32                   32
Intimidate            7                 26                   26
Jump                  2                 10                   14
Listen                0                  8                    8
Move Silently         8                 32                   32
Open Lock             8                 32                   32
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                  4                    4
Search                7                 27                   27
Spot                  0                  2                    2
Swim                  2                  2                    2
Tumble                8                 32                   38
Use Magic Device      7                 26                   26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding


Level 2 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense


Level 4 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Blocking


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante II
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante III
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking IV
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III

Pretty straightforward build concept: dodge and stick. Offense: haste, Greater TWF, crippling strike, all sneak attack enhancements. Defense: Thief Acrobat, TWD, TWB, Improved evasion. Crowd control: all the CHA skills. High UMD, both human and elf items, with access to paladin items.

Questions:
1) The Paladin CHA dilettante enhancements can get up to +5 to saves. Do items that improve CHA contribute to this, or does it have to be base CHA?

2) Is TWB worthwhile?

3) I've never played a rogue to high levels. How important are spot and listen, really?

4) Alignment advice?

[ComradeAdrock]

I guess the glaring weakness here is the 200 hp, but it fits the character to get punished for hits. Nevertheless, toughness may be a better choice than TWB.

[ComradeAdrock]

Yeah, TWB and TWD could both be cut... I thought they gave extra bonuses to Defensive fighting and/or combat expertise, but it looks like I'm wrong. Makes sense to me, though, just like Power Attack has double efficacy with a THW.

[ComradeAdrock]

Yeah, TWB and TWD could both be cut... I thought they gave extra bonuses to Defensive fighting and/or combat expertise, but it looks like I'm wrong. Makes sense to me, though, just like Power Attack has double efficacy with a THW.

Yeah, Dodge and mobility would be much better choices.

[blametroi]

I shouldn't post before coffee, that's "+2 tome" and "level 7". I thought they had to wait until level 7?

[ComradeAdrock]

I shouldn't post before coffee, that's "+2 tome" and "level 7". I thought they had to wait until level 7?

That's right, you have to wait until level 7 to use the tomes. As far as I'm aware, I did not take any feats or enhancements before level 7 that require more than my starting stats.

[karl_k0ch]

Stats
Imho, your main stats are pretty suboptimal.
You do not need to take 14 Int to be able to do traps in a reliable way. Also 14 Cha seems a bit overkill.
Since the Dilly grants at most a bonus of +5. This can be obtained by taking 12 base Cha, a +6 item, and a +2 tome. If you do not have a +2 tome, the Pally stat enhancement and a +1 tome will do. Note that Rogues are pretty tight on APs, so this might decrease your DPS output.
That in mind, consider the following initial stat spread:
16 Str (all level up points go here)
15 Dex
14 Con
12 Int
8 Wis
12 Cha

While this is still not the most DPS-Centered stat spread, it allows you to stay in spirit of your initial idea, but it allows you to be Str-based, essentially freeing one feat. It needs a +2 Dex tome by level 9. +2 tomes are usable starting from level 2 on.
Edit: This is a bad idea since Pally Dilly requires 13 Cha.

Hit points

I guess the glaring weakness here is the 200 hp, but it fits the character to get punished for hits. Nevertheless, toughness may be a better choice than TWB.

On the one hand, the planner does not take +6 con item, GFL, Argo Favor or GS HP items into account. On the other hand, no toughness is still a no-no.

Feats
Imho, the feats two weapon blocking and two weapon defense are not very useful on your build. If you need to block on your rogue while wielding two weapons, you are doing it wrong. Imho, the need for such measures is not given. TWD is totally useless because you will not be able to reach a reasonable amount of AC with or without TWD.

On the other hand, you are missing one of the feats which easily will enhance your damage output: Power Attack. Yes, it is that good.

And on a third note: Which finessable Slashing weapons are you planning to use? Typically, Khopeshes are the DPS weapon of choice for TWF, if you have the feat. Thanks to the sneak attack dice, a Rapier is a worse, but on a Rogue only slightly worse choice, if you can't afford the feat (or the plat for the weapons).

Conclusion
So, in comparison to your initial build, I'd suggest to go Str-based and take Toughness, Power Attack and Khopesh Proficiency instead of Finess, TWD and TWB.

Questions:
1) The Paladin CHA dilettante enhancements can get up to +5 to saves. Do items that improve CHA contribute to this, or does it have to be base CHA? I have not tested it myself, but I would be very surprised if it would only use the base Cha

2) Is TWB worthwhile? No.

3) I've never played a rogue to high levels. How important are spot and listen, really? Listen: Not at all. Spot: It's helpful to see stealthing mobs as well as sensing traps, which is helpful if you neither have a map of the trap and box locations, nor a jumping vet, nor a zerging barbarian at hand. As a new player to rogues, I'd take it.

4) Alignment advice? Either Lawful Good for earlier access to Pure Good Weapons or True Neutral for easier access to some end-game items.

[ComradeAdrock]

Thanks for your advice, but I'm sticking with the dex build. I will be wielding rapiers.

[karl_k0ch]

Thanks for your advice, but I'm sticking with the dex build. I will be wielding rapiers.

I don't see why it is necessary to run this build as a Dex version.
I can understand that you don't want to run khopeshes as rapiers are perfectly viable weapons. Then you should take IC: Piercing.
Still, imho, there is no urgent need to lose about 10 damage per hit.

[ComradeAdrock]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page

El Matador 
Level 20 Neutral Good Half-Elf Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 23
Will: 8

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             13                 15                   15
Dexterity            16                 23                   28
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         14                 16                   16
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             13                 15                   16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               3                  9                   15
Bluff                 5                 26                   26
Concentration         2                  3                    3
Diplomacy             5                 26                   26
Disable Device        6                 26                   26
Haggle                1                  3                    3
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  7                 32                   32
Intimidate            1                  3                    3
Jump                  1                 15                   19
Listen               -1                  0                    0
Move Silently         7                 32                   32
Open Lock             7                 32                   32
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                  3                    3
Search                6                 26                   26
Spot                  3                 23                   23
Swim                  1                  2                    2
Tumble                7                 32                   38
Use Magic Device      5                 26                   26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante II
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante III
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III

13 Cha is required for the Paladin Dilettante. 13 Str for Power attack.

[blametroi]

Thanks for your advice, but I'm sticking with the dex build. I will be wielding rapiers.

Bravo.

[karl_k0ch]

13 Cha is required for the Paladin Dilettante.

True. I missed that. My apologies.
This way, a 16 Str/15 Dex approach would only be possible with a starting 11 Int, which is understandably not desired.

[sigtrent]

The revised version looks pretty decent, a solid take on a finesse rogue. The first one just didn't gell too well.

You don't really need sneak attack accuracy 3 or 4 and that would free up points to use elsewhere and the most important place would be some subtle backstabbing. Even as a finesse build you will throw some serious damage and pulling agro is bad times.

[ComradeAdrock]

The revised version looks pretty decent, a solid take on a finesse rogue. The first one just didn't gell too well.

You don't really need sneak attack accuracy 3 or 4 and that would free up points to use elsewhere and the most important place would be some subtle backstabbing. Even as a finesse build you will throw some serious damage and pulling agro is bad times.

I was in too much of a hurry to post the build, I didn't adequately think it through first. I like the final version, though. I'll take your advice and opt for the subtle backstabbing.