GS Greataxe Vrs. GS Greatsword

[Shade]

? if you hit every time with a pair of heavy picks i assume that it does more damage than a greataxe (autocrit)? not really familiar with barb dps...

Interesting assumption. But very much false.

You don't hit everytime with a pair of rockspliter on an unspec'd barb, or any character for that matter.

Base TWF proc chance, for the offhand weapon:
20%

So if you get 100 hits, you get 120 total.
For THF fully spec'd:
75% glancing blows.
So 100 hits, 175 total.

Glancing blows wouldn't quite match the rockspitter hits perhaps, but the fact you get more then 3 times then would more then make up the differnece. No the mention the maintain dmg of a THF is vastly superior, even if its only x3 crit (due to base dice, power attacks, racial benefits, str, etc, etc)

In the actual game, even a 100% TWF spec char does less auto crit dps with rocksplitters then a properly build THF with a THF weapon. But for the most part - the character with the best gear would win here, more so then the build, there prety close.

[stille_nacht]

Interesting assumption. But very much false.

You don't hit everytime with a pair of rockspliter on an unspec'd barb, or any character for that matter.

Base TWF proc chance, for the offhand weapon:
20%

So if you get 100 hits, you get 120 total.
For THF fully spec'd:
75% glancing blows.
So 100 hits, 175 total.

Glancing blows wouldn't quite match the rockspitter hits perhaps, but the fact you get more then 3 times then would more then make up the differnece. No the mention the maintain dmg of a THF is vastly superior, even if its only x3 crit (due to base dice, power attacks, racial benefits, str, etc, etc)

In the actual game, even a 100% TWF spec char does less auto crit dps with rocksplitters then a properly build THF with a THF weapon. But for the most part - the character with the best gear would win here, more so then the build, there prety close.

right.... i feel dumb xD, the last time i meleed was pre-nerf >.>, but i definitely heard about it....


also, i still stick with my "if its held dont really worry about dps too much" stance.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Play what you like, like what you play.

[bryanmeerkat]

Play what you like, like what you play.

Well more like , play what you like , cry cos your not as good as everyone else .

[TheHolyDarkness]

No.
Your party won't appreciate running doznes of epic carnival runs with someone using an x2 crit weapon vs auto crit targets. At least not if your party appreciates fast completions and uses mass hold monster as most of mine do.

Thank you for the articulation response, though perhaps I should have elaborated my particular case.

My main character IS that arcane whose holding everything. Hence my attitude that maybe I want a non autocrit trash killer first for the barbarian, and stick with the old metaline of pure goods (I have it in both Axe and Maul form) for DR breaking in the meantime.

I had plans on heavy token grinding from Phiarlian anyway, and loot gods willing, I hear that bumping into Epic Antique Greataxe materials is "relatively easy" compared to most other things. Would a Lit II Falch not make a better partner to the Antique than a Min II Axe? My fear is that if I make a min II, the antique is one day going to make me regret it. Again, its not as my barbarian that I'll be primarily farming the Axe up, so shouldn't running the alt around with a x2 be moot?

Right now my barb is slowing down on experience gain as it enters its DT grind phase, so I'm figuring I have time. Would you still insist that I cancel the falch in my specific case, or is my current course sound now that I've elaborated?

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Shade]

Right now my barb is slowing down on experience gain as it enters its DT grind phase, so I'm figuring I have time. Would you still insist that I cancel the falch in my specific case, or is my current course sound now that I've elaborated?

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

I guess if your only high lvl will end up being an arcane that could make sense. My advice more so assumed your playing a barbarian, and probably others, to run multiple shrouds.

Should you only be able to 1 run shroud every 3 days, versus 1 epic a day, you may indeed get the greataxe faster. It's very much luck based thru, where GS griding is a pretty steady grind.

Far as the falcion goes, again only make it first if your arcane is your main and you only plan to take the barb on raids imo.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The trick with vals numbers is he calcs the animations over a set period of time and not the actual "hits" (that and his monk full cycle count is 4 attack animations and not 5).

To me it doesn't matter how many animations are done , it is the number of hits I get.
doesn't mean it is wrong just that slower animation doesn't equal fewer hits. could line up spot on to the number of hits but till he does a direct comparison I can't be used as proof of anything in my book.

now the fact that at the upper bounds of attack speed bonuses you can get to beyond 1 full swing animation difference tells me there is likely something to it but like I said with out hit numbers to compare proof is a misnomer.

There is only 4 attacks in a monks attack cycle even though it looks like 5. This has been looked at and resolved. The number of animations have also been demonstrated to correlate to the amount of hits (except for bows).

ahahha.. good joke i guess?

Even a lit2 greataxe outdps's ESoS for autocrit btw.

3d6+5+S+Dx3+2d6 holy+1d6+4d10+4d6/20+ shocking burst+shocking blast vs 5d6+10+S+Dx3+2d6 holy (assuming good augment)

(is this how the good augment works?)

15.5+S+Dx3+32.5+.7+550*.02 vs 27.5+S+Dx3+7

S and D shouldn't matter so assume 0.

90.7 vs 89.5

So, assuming that in auto-crit situations that you are twitching the eSoS will be in front (due to slightly faster attack speeds for greatswords for hasted barbarians).

Or did I miss something?

[Kinerd]

Even one pick has a higher crit rate though ?
Wonder where the strength maths would take this .

4 multiplier times 1 per Strength bonus vs. 3 multiplier times 1.5 per Strength bonus, so the THF gets 0.5 more per Strength bonus while picks get 1 more per other damage bonus. THF also gets a head start from having much higher base damage: on crits, 9d6 versus 4d8 just for a greensteel greataxe (it gets crazy with the eSoS). It doesn't work out to use picks without TWF if you have high Strength.

So yes my advice is sound and your adivce kinerd is not sound.

This is hard to understand considering that you haven't disagreed with any of my conclusions. Statements I have made in this thread:

1. Greataxes and greatswords are pretty indistinguishable outside of auto-crit.
2. Use greataxes in auto-crit.
3. Falchions do more than greataxes outside of auto-crit.

You've said exactly the same things. You also want to talk about available resources, relative time spent in epics, etc. - feel free! I haven't said anything about those concerns, and don't intend to. There are lots of people who don't get into the math and mechanics and just want the ending so that they can take what they know about their personal wealth, their personal time, etc. and apply the facts. That's all I offered.

[Shade]

1. Greataxes and greatswords are pretty indistinguishable outside of auto-crit.
2. Use greataxes in auto-crit.
3. Falchions do more than greataxes outside of auto-crit.

We could go back and forth forever. I dunno why you can't get it tho.

1. False. For the 80189912th time. False.
Greataxes are faster. Small but enough to make greatswords useless.
Twitch - No. I looked at vanshilars thread again, and non-haste twitch (which is annoying, hard to do and never used) sure greatswords faster. But hasted twtich results were:
Greataxe: 119.3, Greatsword: 119.6 . Within the margin of error to call them equal. Add addditonal boosts to the greataxe like haste boost I some barbs have, and blam - Greataxe wins, as it gains more from attack speed boosts.

2. Yes. Agreed.

3. No. Blanket statement that I don't agee with, nor should anyone.

More accurate:
Falchions SOMETIMES do more than greataxes outside of auto-crit. Several factors apply tho - EG: Are you dwarf with +4 axe dmg? Are you elf with falcion dmg? Is your str very low, or very high?
Depending on the answers to each, the recommendation will change as they are very close and each factor could change which is best.

[Kinerd]

We could go back and forth forever. I dunno why you can't get it tho.

1. False. For the 80189912th time. False.
Greataxes are faster. Small but enough to make greatswords useless.
Twitch - No. I looked at vanshilars thread again, and non-haste twitch (which is annoying, hard to do and never used) sure greatswords faster. But hasted twtich results were:
Greataxe: 119.3, Greatsword: 119.6 . Within the margin of error to call them equal. Add addditonal boosts to the greataxe like haste boost I some barbs have, and blam - Greataxe wins, as it gains more from attack speed boosts.

2. Yes. Agreed.

3. No. Blanket statement that I don't agee with, nor should anyone.

More accurate:
Falchions SOMETIMES do more than greataxes outside of auto-crit. Several factors apply tho - EG: Are you dwarf with +4 axe dmg? Are you elf with falcion dmg? Is your str very low, or very high?
Depending on the answers to each, the recommendation will change as they are very close and each factor could change which is best.

Haste is 15% boost. For that value, slow twitch is 119.5. Fast twitch is 118.5. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. These are the stated values, and slow twitch is faster. With Haste Boost I, fast twitch is 137.6 and slow twitch is 136.9 while boosted. Hence, each style gets the following number of swing animations per 30 seconds:

(19.4 * 137.6 + 10 * 118.5) / 60 = 64.24
(19.4 * 136.9 + 10 * 119.5) / 60 = 64.18

This is a .09% advantage. It is only available for barbarians who:
1) Have splashed into a class with Haste Boosts, a practice you deride elsewhere.
2) Have Quickdraw. Without Quickdraw, they only have a .08% advantage.

Faced with this .09% advantage, I say they are pretty indistinguishable. You earlier said "They average out nearly the same as a greataxe, but swing a bit slower.", which I incorrectly read as saying the same thing. Now it appears you feel greatswords are categorically useless, so I am pretty confused.

I am further confused by your thinking so highly of the .09% advantage hybrid barbarians have while thinking so lowly of the advantage falchions have over greataxes, even going so far as to suggest the possibility of a barbarian with "very low" Strength.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The rock splitter conversation is n/a. A greataxe is a longer weapon, that counts more than it should in DDO. Anyone who has played a THF toon for an extended period knows this. Picks have an awfully small range in comparison.

It can be fun to take out a calculator, as some have in this thread, but it doesnt always equate to fact in the dynamic world of DDO. There are always variables that are not included in the maths that debunk the outcome.

As for weapon choice for a THF, I'm in Shade's camp. I've always felt the fastest and smoothest animation (of the three weapons discussed here) belonged to the greataxe. Falcions on a non-dwarf THF however find its way into my weapons stockpile. Greatswords I've never found a comfort zone with them. Lower crits, more often doesn't gel well for me when the swing speed is slow and monsters go down as fast as they do in the presence of a high str THF.

[ThePrincipal]

so looking at the numbers posted assuming the build swinging the weapon is the same (max str barb for example):

Falchion 2d4 18-20/×2
Greataxe 1d12 20/×3
Greatsword 2d6 19-20/×2

1. Vs 0% Fort, non-auto crit... FA, GS/GA tied for 2nd
2. Vs. 0% Fort, auto crit.... GA, GS, FA
3. Vs. 100% Fort, non-auto crit... GS, GA, FA

This makes sense to me. Each weapon has its place. I've read that one could make the case that auto-crit power is the least imporant scenerio since the mob is helpless. Similarly, one can also make the case that in scenerio 3, the base damage difference between them is di minimus. So... does this mean that the Falchion is the best weapon?

What doesnt make sense to me is Maul vs Greatclub. Greatclub needs 19-20x2 badly. They should also make it look like a 2-handed morning star too.

Greatclub 1d10 20/×2
Maul 1d10 20/×3

[PopeJual]

I've read that one could make the case that auto-crit power is the least imporant scenerio since the mob is helpless.

That mob might be helpless, but all of his buddies aren't.

Also, for Stunning Blow/Stunning Fist, you have 6 seconds of stun time. The faster you can kill your stunned opponent, the faster you can move on to another target that *is* currently a threat and the less chance there is of moving past the 6 seconds of stun. Even on Mass Hold, the autocrit/helpless will wear off eventually. It would be nice if the critters were all dead before that happened.

If DDO had a "come one at a time" feature, then the amount of damage you could do against stunned/autocrit opponents would be much less significant since they are helpless as you point out.

New DDO killer combo - Ring of Fire + Nunchaku + Come One At A Time + high Chi.
...wait. that's not DDO. That's L5R. My bad.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Ok. So I recently succeeded on getting the materials together for my Epic Antique Axe (way ahead of my personal schedule). The barb has had its Lit II falch since last week when it turned 17, but at the moment, it is currently only level 18, sitting at an otherwise useless shard, seal, and scroll.

So naturally I'm hitting the accelerator for getting this HOrc up to 20. Comparing the Falch (air/pos/lit II) to the Epic Axe, will the greensteel be obsolete the very moment my barb is capped, or will it occasionally still good for something?

If the former, that's cool. The Lit II was a fun toy for leveling up. I have many shroud slaves. :P

If the latter, how so? Under what conditions are lit II's known to outperform the EAntique?

If it helps, I went the toughness route and neglected stunning blow. For now.

Final conjecture: Perhaps I can ask for an alternative analysis in this as well. I ponder how upcoming changes to autocrit will shift the debate of Falchion versus Axe. As of U9, we'll simply be doing 50% more damage on helpless states apparently. Could this be a game changer?

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[AylinIsAwesome]

Ok. So I recently succeeded on getting the materials together for my Epic Antique Axe (way ahead of my personal schedule). The barb has had its Lit II falch since last week when it turned 17, but at the moment, it is currently only level 18, sitting at an otherwise useless shard, seal, and scroll.

So naturally I'm hitting the accelerator for getting this HOrc up to 20. Comparing the Falch (air/pos/lit II) to the Epic Axe, will the greensteel be obsolete the very moment my barb is capped, or will it occasionally still good for something?

If the former, that's cool. The Lit II was a fun toy for leveling up. I have many shroud slaves. :P

If the latter, how so? Under what conditions are lit II's known to outperform the EAntique?

If it helps, I went the toughness route and neglected stunning blow. For now.

Final conjecture: Perhaps I can ask for an alternative analysis in this as well. I ponder how upcoming changes to autocrit will shift the debate of Falchion versus Axe. As of U9, we'll simply be doing 50% more damage on helpless states apparently. Could this be a game changer?

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

The Axe will do more damage in Hard and Elite raids since it'll bypass DR.

However, with the change to helpless, Falchions are now better than Axes again, so against trash your Lit 2 will be better.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Thanks. I have a feeling that is so, so I'm looking for a more specific confirmation.

Has anyone crunched any numbers on the differences between the two? On that train of thought, I wonder what the number crunch analysis of the Epic Axe was against the Min II as well.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[AylinIsAwesome]

Thanks. I have a feeling that is so, so I'm looking for a more specific confirmation.

Has anyone crunched any numbers on the differences between the two? On that train of thought, I wonder what the number crunch analysis of the Epic Axe was against the Min II as well.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Min 2 axe will do less damage than an Epic Antique Greataxe.


I never did any comparison between a Min 2 Falchion and the Epic Antique though, but I suspect that the Min 2 Falchion will be better.