Add Spell Resistance check to Mass Hold Monster/Person

[Carpone]

The Mass Hold Monster and Mass Hold Person spells do not have a Spell Resistance check, but should. They stand out as oddities when you examine similar spells:

Hold Person has an SR check but Mass Hold Person does not.
Hold Monster has an SR check but Mass Hold Monster does not.
Flesh to Stone has an SR check.
Charm Person has an SR check.
Charm Monster has an SR check.
Mass Charm Monster has an SR check.

[dkyle]

It's pretty clearly a bug, and I suspect it's already on their list of things to fix.

But, hopefully, they'll also take a second look at Drow SR when they do fix it

[hermespan]

I can see comparing these to other enchantment spells but flesh to stone is transmutation. There's absolutely nothing in common between hold and flesh to stone, except the mob is immobilized.

Other than that I agree. In 3.5e rules hold monster and hold person have SR checks for both single and mass versions.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Hold_Person

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Hold_Monster

This looks like an oversight on the part of the developers or the spell description is wrong, not like that's ever happened before

/ducks

[dkyle]

I can see comparing these to other enchantment spells but flesh to stone is transmutation. There's absolutely nothing in common between hold and flesh to stone, except the mob is immobilized.

It's a non-damaging effect that directly manipulates the target. All other spells like that are subject to SR, and that's the general rule the Devs seems to have adopted.

DDO departs from 3.5 in that pure-damage spells don't have SR checks, even if they would in 3.5. Disintegrate, for example, is subject to SR in 3.5, but not in DDO. This seems to be a conscious game design choice, though, and one I fully support.

[voodoogroves]

It's a non-damaging effect that directly manipulates the target. All other spells like that are subject to SR, and that's the general rule the Devs seems to have adopted.

DDO departs from 3.5 in that pure-damage spells don't have SR checks, even if they would in 3.5. Disintegrate, for example, is subject to SR in 3.5, but not in DDO. This seems to be a conscious game design choice, though, and one I fully support.

Yep - in 3.5 a spell that creates something "real" that then damages the target (ie, most damaging conjurations) don't have SR checks - those that manipulate the target, do.


The difficulty the devs have is, I think, balancing the otherwise dead-or-good-enough-in-one-shot issues that make some of PNP play less challenging. You can increase SR to make it so the low-HD devil or demon isn't destroyed by Holy Word in one round, but then what ... etc. You can't stat-damage & drain anything into oblivion (so no slime-waving dragons like in PNP).

[Krag]

All the 18/2 splashes will cry bloody tears.

[Phidius]

All the 18/2 splashes will cry bloody tears.

Not all of them - some of us planned our build to account for the loss of 2 spell pen, and were surprised to be shown that Mass Hold Monster didn't need it.

[Cyr]

Not all of them - some of us planned our build to account for the loss of 2 spell pen, and were surprised to be shown that Mass Hold Monster didn't need it.

Indeed. My 18/2 gimped wizard says bring on the SR checks. They deserve to be there for these spells.

[Krag]

Not all of them - some of us planned our build to account for the loss of 2 spell pen, and were surprised to be shown that Mass Hold Monster didn't need it.

I am not sure what do you mean by planning ahead. A splash is always 2 points behind pure class with the same feats and same number of past lifes.

[PopeJual]

I am not sure what do you mean by planning ahead. A splash is always 2 points behind pure class with the same feats and same number of past lifes.

But you can plan ahead by taking more Spell Penetration than a pure Wizard would normally take.

[Alektronic]

Suggestion don't have SR check neither. Didn't know about hold.

[Phidius]

I am not sure what do you mean by planning ahead. A splash is always 2 points behind pure class with the same feats and same number of past lifes.

Do you really think that content will be created with the assumption that only a pure 20 with 3 past lifes of wizard and 3 past lifes of FvS will be able to overcome the SR?

As long as content is balanced toward the casual player who isn't expected to TR, a single TR brings an 18/2 to the same level as a pure 20.

Planning ahead: be prepared to TR at least once, grind for the Greater Spell Pen VIII, invest in both Spell Pen feats and the full line of Spell Pen enhancements.

[Aashrym]

Suggestion don't have SR check neither. Didn't know about hold.

Suggestion needs to be differentiated from Charm and SR check vs no SR check helps with that. I would consider that a beneficial exception.

Mass hold monster should have the SR check on there and I expect it's only a matter of time.

[Krag]

Do you really think that content will be created with the assumption that only a pure 20 with 3 past lifes of wizard and 3 past lifes of FvS will be able to overcome the SR?

As long as content is balanced toward the casual player who isn't expected to TR, a single TR brings an 18/2 to the same level as a pure 20.

Planning ahead: be prepared to TR at least once, grind for the Greater Spell Pen VIII, invest in both Spell Pen feats and the full line of Spell Pen enhancements.

Sort of. I think the content was balanced so that a pure level 20 wizard will not have 100% success without past lifes.

[Phidius]

Sort of. I think the content was balanced so that a pure level 20 wizard will not have 100% success without past lifes.

Could be - I play to have fun, not analyze numbers and stuff. But when you consider the reason behind adding a non-D&D mechanic (grazing hits) just because players were upset when they missed, I think that if a pure level 20 wizard (with the appropriate investment in spell pen) was getting significant problems with landing their spells, Turbine would come to their rescue fast enough.

So, just plan ahead to TR at least one time, and an 18/2 build will be just fine

[Quarterling]

All the 18/2 splashes will cry bloody tears.

Really? In that case, /signed!