why does 5 feats in bow do less dps than 0 in melee?

[cypan41]

I spend 5 feats to get all the archer feats, (minus shot on the run, because it needs 3 feats to get it (Ridicules)) And still, I equip any melee weapon I am proficient with, with no feats whatsoever to help specialize said weapon. And I do more dps with it than with my bows. Exactly the same type weapons, tried it with a holy bow, a holy quarterstaff, a holy rapier, a holy mace. All of which did more dps than the bow. That is horrible.

I know it's been said that bow is being looked at and will get fixed this year.. But can we please get it fixed soon? The rate of fire is just painful to play with. I remember when it wasn't broken. Years ago.. Actually I remember patch day when it got broken freaking out at how horrible it messed up my archer..
Can it really be so hard to fix? For you guys and us, I hope not.

[Brennie]

One of the biggest arguments for TWF superiority over THF is the stat and feat investment.

Archery requires higher stat investment (Split between strength for damage and dex to-hit) and more feat investment (PBS, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise shot, and toss in Weapon Focus and often Mental Toughness if you wanna be an AA), and yet falls behind every other form of weapon-based DPS by a significant margin. This is not to say that Archery should be equal to melee dps, as it does have some advantages that melee does not (Easy DR breaking, being able to hit unmeleeable targets, easily switching targets, and Improved Precise Shot getting several enemies at once very so often, etc), but the investment needs to atleast be worth the end result.

However, an across the board increase in ranged attack speed would have unintended consequences when mixed with manyshot and slayer arrow. Although i don't have a solution for slayer arrow (and don't you dare touch my only meaningful contribution to DPS!), i think that Manyshot should impose an attack speed penalty when in use to compensate for a (hopefully) higher attack rate with ranged weapons. This also conforms to PnP standards where manyshot was a once-per-round shoot-a-bunch-of-arrows-at-once option, while normal full-attack option let you fire several arrows (Which is represented in DDO by escalating attack speeds as BaB increase). Manyshot would still be a DPS boost, just not such a significant shift from "Doing less damage than sword and board" to "outDPSing the TWF rogue who is getting sneak attacks every hit" for 20 seconds.

Also, while we're tangentially on the topic, can i also request the AA ToD set gets its Prestige bonus? AA is a complete prestige enhancement line now, and it'd be very spiffy to see some benefit for an AA with +5 arrows/slayer arrows to get some bonus benefit from their hard-earned ToD set.

Need Suggestions? Seeker Arrow: Inspired from the PnP class, when both the Necklace and Ring are worn, all projectiles fired by an AA will "Seek" their target, much like magic missiles do, making it impossible for them to physically dodge. Attack rolls, are performed normally, and intervening obstacles/concealment/other defenses still apply.

Ooor each arrow applies a 1d6 damage of *random elemental type* per hit.

Or maybe each "imbue" gains an upgrade (Flame arrows explode on vorpal strikes, giving a small 5d6-10d6 fire AoE; Fear Arrows increase the DC for PK or use Slay Living instead; Slayer Arrows also debuff fortification by 5%; Acid Arrows slow enemies al-la acid fog; Force arrows... are uh... more forceful? I dunno >_>)

No more derail, sorry

[Anneliese]

#1: Line up a lot of mobs, activate improved precise shot

#2 Activate Slaying Arrow (Arcane Archer highest tier)

#3 Use a nice bow, like a lightning 2, or just the silver bow if you are not so rich yet (you do have improved crit ranged, right?

#4 Activate Manyshot - watch everything die

[MrWizard]

ranged does way more than melee if the mob is not within swinging distance, in fact way more damage.

doesn't range allow multiple hits at once too? Melee only get some glancing blow damage.

Doesn't range + jump + running = high dps, no healing, and keystones cop running by melee trying to chase mob and not hitting them at all?

I have seen some good ranged players, they melee too. They range the heck out of the mobs til they get to us and then switch to melee. A lot of damage done before they even get to us. At lower levels i always found that an immense addition to the party.

I am sure it will all work out once they tend to it..just hold on and hope.

[furbyoats]

ranged does way more than melee if the mob is not within swinging distance, in fact way more damage.

doesn't range allow multiple hits at once too? Melee only get some glancing blow damage.

Doesn't range + jump + running = high dps, no healing, and keystones cop running by melee trying to chase mob and not hitting them at all?

I have seen some good ranged players, they melee too. They range the heck out of the mobs til they get to us and then switch to melee. A lot of damage done before they even get to us. At lower levels i always found that an immense addition to the party.

I am sure it will all work out once they tend to it..just hold on and hope.

i have seen a lot of aa's completely fail to understand the underlined concept...and dare you suggest that they change? oh no....lawd no

[kaobang]

Doesn't range + jump + running = high dps, no healing, and keystones cop running by melee trying to chase mob and not hitting them at all?

Kiting can be done by TH users and they do much more damage

[bryanmeerkat]

Ranged combat needs to do less damage otherwise what would be the point in meleeing anything when you could kill it outright before it gets to you .
Most DPs will kill a trash mob in 1-3 swings . If you could do the same with a bow , nothing would get to you .

[Failedlegend]

i have seen a lot of aa's completely fail to understand the underlined concept...and dare you suggest that they change? oh no....lawd no

NO NO NO.. that doesn't actually make ranged a viable concept it allows you to augment your melee combatant with a little chip damage during the initial rush.

I spend 5 feats to get all the archer feats, I equip any melee weapon I am proficient with, with no feats whatsoever to help specialize said weapon. And I do more dps with it than with my bows.

I know it's been said that Ranged Combat in general (Contrary to popular belief there is more than one non-thrown ranged weapon) is being looked at and will get fixed this year.. But can we please get it fixed soon?

Made a slight change

[cypan41]

As it's been said. Spending 5 feats to get a ton less dps is just stupid. You want to make archers (which used to be very powerful in PnP, kind of like in real life archers were always considered very powerful) into just a little damage to pull mobs and then force us to switch to melee? Ok. well then get rid of the need for all these feats.

[Khanyth]

As it's been said. Spending 5 feats to get a ton less dps is just stupid. You want to make archers (which used to be very powerful in PnP, kind of like in real life archers were always considered very powerful) into just a little damage to pull mobs and then force us to switch to melee? Ok. well then get rid of the need for all these feats.

Real life logic/references in a fantasy MMORPG?

You mean like, how real life archers killed things from a far, and then once the enemy got close, whipped out a sword and killed those ones? And by real life, I mean, those archers who wanted to stay alive not those archers who threw down their bows and died or ran like hell.

It's also a matter of game balance too.... if everyone could chose feats that would kills stuff from a far uber quick, and when/if stuff got close, they could melee them dead just as uber quick.... welll..... that'd be a bit overpowered, no?

[SiliconShadow]

Epics my AA is more powerful than my BARB, in raids my barbarian is more powerful than my AA.

The reason of this is because in Epics the monsters get held, I can hit 2/3 mobs increasing my crits from around 180 + elemental dmgs + slayer procs per arrow to that per target I am hitting.

My barb hits 240 per swing about some glancing blows swings faster and does max of around 600 on a single crit.

If I many shot I can clear a whole held spawn of mobs faster than any mellee can kill 1 mob.

My arcane archer has that good gear he should be double that of my barb in power not just slightly ahead when the situation is right.

Yes it needs a fix, we have been saying it for a while. Maybe one day my hard work on my AA will come to fruit, hell I might copy trishi he is goin for completionist while they sort it out and being an aa with every class in game.. sounds like fun to me.

[Failedlegend]

Epics my AA is more powerful than my BARB, in raids my barbarian is more powerful than my AA.

OK good for him he's useful in PvP and epics...approximately 5% of the game.

Saying somethings good in epics (and nothing else) is pointless...it's broken and should never be used to measure a build/class

[yawumpus]

There aren't many ways to build a ranged DDO character.

1. Be a ranger. Your best bet is to be a melee ranger and use the bow while manyshot is active, melee when in cooldown. Those who are more interested in the bow should go the AA route: they only need AA required feats and improved critical: ranged.

2. Be a mechanic. You get exotic prof: light repeater at level 6, heavy repeater at 12. Take rapid reload and improved critical: ranged to pump these up. IMPORTANT: you only get sneak attacks from within 30', so expect to be running around inside the melee, or don't expect to do much DPS.

3. Be a repeater bard. WARNING: this build tends to draw way too much agro around 10th (look for a paralyzing repeater, which is a good idea for any ranged toon), and runs out of steam a bit later (consider crafting a dual positive greensteel repeater). A fun build, strong at first but runs out of steam quick.

After this, things get pretty harsh. There appears to be options for FVS archer builds (sliver flamers?), but after a bunch of threads on the subject, I have yet to see a strong build. Bowbarian builds float around the forums, but I doubt that they would be picked for raids unless the player was well known.

[Failedlegend]

There aren't many ways to build a ranged DDO character.

1. Be a ranger. Your best bet is to be a melee ranger and use the bow while manyshot is active, melee when in cooldown. Those who are more interested in the bow should go the AA route: they only need AA required feats and improved critical: ranged.

2. Be a mechanic. You get exotic prof: light repeater at level 6,Int to damage heavy repeater at 12. Take the 100% required 6 feats. IMPORTANT: you only get sneak attacks from within 30' which is more like 10ft because the devs can't count, so expect to be running around inside the melee, or don't expect to do much DPS.


3. Be a repeater bard. WARNING: this build tends to draw way too much agro around 10th (look for a paralyzing repeater, which is a good idea for any ranged toon), and runs out of steam a bit later (consider crafting a dual positive greensteel repeater). A fun build, strong at first but runs out of steam quick.

4. Be a Repeater Bard/Rogue (14/6) You get exotic prof: light repeater at level 6. +Int to damage (look for a paralyzing repeater until you can craft a Green steel Rad II Repeater) take Virtuoso unless you drop toughness to fit in Spellsinger feat req. Again take the 6 required feats


Note: Halfling is recommended for 2,3 & 4 (never made an AA so i can't comment on 1) due to their natural dexterousness and their ability to increase their to-hit+damage through enhancements...especially the to-hit.

Added a couple things you missed....in red

Here's the 6 feats I'm talking about+ Toughness

1 Point Blank Shot
2 Rapid Shot
3 Rapid Reload
4 Precise Shot
5 Imp Precise Shot
6 Imp Crit: Ranged
& Toughness

[Missing_Minds]

i have seen a lot of aa's completely fail to understand the underlined concept...and dare you suggest that they change? oh no....lawd no

In my opinion, those players are.... poor players. I have other words I'd like to use though.

The only exception I have with this is if they only need to shoot two more times to kill said creature.

[Grifarr]

Yes it is a feat heavy investment to get what you need to optimize an AA but when played right you do a ton of damage. I have only played a pure ranger AA but with the free melee and ranged feats a ranger gets and improved crit: piercing and power attack being my only melee boosting feats I took I am never disappointed with the effectiveness of my AA. Do I melee? Every time the mobs are in close and many shot is down out come the element/holy of greater bane rapiers and away I go. When stuff is bunched up and many shot is on its hot knife through butter time. I frequently out kill all the melees combined in the shroud by playing my AA smart. And I know kill count isnt a true reflection of DPS but when you see 3, 4, 5+ solid columns of damage + holy + lightning + things like slayer or the on vorpal proc from the Lordsmark bracers scrolling up at at time you know you are contributing more than your fair share. And when it returns to plink plink plink out come the blades.

Feat heavy? Sure. So are lots of good dps builds. Do you need to play smart? Absolutely, but have no doubt a well played, moderately well geared AA is not lacking.

[grodon9999]

The reason of this is because in Epics the monsters get held, I can hit 2/3 mobs increasing my crits from around 180 + elemental dmgs + slayer procs per arrow to that per target I am hitting.

Both my tempest rangers have lightning II bows for this reason.

[kernal42]

why does 5 feats in bow do less dps than 0 in melee?

It's because spending 0 feats in bow use gives you better damage dealt/damage taken than spending 5 feats in melee.

-Kernal

[Orratti]

I'm beginning to wonder if having to reload bows and crossbows messes up the combat mechanics esp when using auto attack but in general terms too. You never have to reload a melee weapon. When using a repeater I usually take my finger off the attack button while it is reloading and it seems I lose fewer shots that way.

This has little to do with the op but thought I'd throw it out there to see what others may think.

[Failedlegend]

Yes it is a feat heavy investment to get what you need to optimize an AA but when played right you do a ton of damage. I have only played a pure ranger AA but with the free melee and ranged feats a ranger gets and improved crit: piercing and power attack being my only melee boosting feats I took I am never disappointed with the effectiveness of my AA. Do I melee? Every time the mobs are in close and many shot is down out come the element/holy of greater bane rapiers and away I go. When stuff is bunched up and many shot is on its hot knife through butter time. I frequently out kill all the melees combined in the shroud by playing my AA smart. And I know kill count isnt a true reflection of DPS but when you see 3, 4, 5+ solid columns of damage + holy + lightning + things like slayer or the on vorpal proc from the Lordsmark bracers scrolling up at at time you know you are contributing more than your fair share. And when it returns to plink plink plink out come the blades.

Feat heavy? Sure. So are lots of good dps builds. Do you need to play smart? Absolutely, but have no doubt a well played, moderately well geared AA is not lacking.

Both my tempest rangers have lightning II bows for this reason.

Once again that doesn't mean ranged combat doesn't need to be fixed on the contrary in that cause your just melee toons that abuse manyshot.

Grodon actually bring up a different interesting aspect with the fact his TWFing Ranger uses manyshot...Rangers should have to choose whether their going to be melee or Ranged rangers and only get the feats related to that because when a ranged feat makes a melee toon better there's a problem....actually IIRC that's how it works in PnP (but i haven't played 3.5 in over a decade so yeah)