Do I have to do LESS damage?

[Aurora1979]

Your welcome

Apologies for the mis info about blur though, genuinly thought they worked together..... ill probably still buff both though... habits too old and if i dont displace will run out and i wont refresh it

Seems cleared up now though. happy arcaning.

[Zigana]

I dont honestly know. I didnt think they stack for 70% but i did think they had seperate rolls. I havent actually tested it, i just always cast both on myself from habit. Ill take your word for it though.

I'm not entirely sure about them both having independent rolls or not. I just haven't noticed that I get hit any less with both going as opposed to just Displacement. My assumption is it works like most other things in DDO, the higher property takes the precedence. My reason for having both going is Blur is more mana efficient and better than nothing for when Displacement wears off and I either haven't noticed it or haven't had a chance to recast it. I basically use Blur as a backup defense/basic mob defense.

[Zigana]

This is how miss chances of different types work, but Blur and Displacement are the same type: Concealment. They do not stack.

Thank you, that was what I always assumed, but glad to have the confirmation

[Postumus]

You're a caster, you *want* agro. The best person to hold agro is the caster, as they're best equipped to deal with it. At these levels, a web and a firewall will turn the biggest wall of trash into ashes, while a resistable dance will render a fire giant or elemental an amusing beating post for the melees.
While you have agro, you should only be taking minimal damage. Keep the trash under control and ensure that between jump, haste, displace and stoneskin melees don't touch you.

OK, so how do I contain the critters in such a way that the melees can actually hit them? Paralyzers and stuns work like a charm, but I don't see many players in pugs with those.


The trash I'm learning to deal with pretty effectively, it's the bosses surrounded by trash, surrounded by the rest of the party I'm having problems with.


Also, with a melee mentality, I have a hard time running around backwards... I always back myself into a corner or get harried or pull all the mobs away from the melees. I try to bounce back and forth through the firewalls, but I'm still getting tagged - hard - when it comes to the boss.

[Theolin]

If you use FW then place a web next to it then kite things round till they get stuck.

If you want to make the melees happy learn how to kite in the perfect almost circle so that the mobs stand in the center spinning in circles looking stupid and not moving anywhere, yes this is actually possible very hard to get right the first time but once you do its bliss to the rest of the party.

If you need more spell slots think what is useful enough as a scroll/wand, this is usually where I get my GH and stoneskin from and some others where 6-12 minutes is enough

I personally think using a shield is asking for trouble more times than not, I know some people who are very good at this and it works for them, and I know there are a few shields with 0% failure on them, but 10-20 damage reduction when things hit for 50ish is just not enough to last for long even with 400HPs thats only about 13 hits & if you have 6 mobs with double attacks ... ummm(yes I've gotten that unlucky even with displacement), and remember for that instant when your casting/healing your not blocking.

[Hobgoblin]

OK, so how do I contain the critters in such a way that the melees can actually hit them? Paralyzers and stuns work like a charm, but I don't see many players in pugs with those.


The trash I'm learning to deal with pretty effectively, it's the bosses surrounded by trash, surrounded by the rest of the party I'm having problems with.


Also, with a melee mentality, I have a hard time running around backwards... I always back myself into a corner or get harried or pull all the mobs away from the melees. I try to bounce back and forth through the firewalls, but I'm still getting tagged - hard - when it comes to the boss.

run towards meele not away, have the meeles form a line and run into the line

hob

[Postumus]

At that level, if you're wearing the chronoscope set and using superior freeze/spark clickies or potions, your cones of cold / ball lightnings should be one-shotting most mobs on normal quests, and two-shotting on hard. Don't be a firewall one-trick pony. Dead mobs don't aggro

I've got the Wrath of Sora Kell set from Lordsmarch and the Shaman set from Red Fens.


I'm assuming they don't stack with each other, but do they still stack with enhancement lines?

[Postumus]

If you use FW then place a web next to it then kite things round till they get stuck.

If you want to make the melees happy learn how to kite in the perfect almost circle so that the mobs stand in the center spinning in circles looking stupid and not moving anywhere, yes this is actually possible very hard to get right the first time but once you do its bliss to the rest of the party.

If you need more spell slots think what is useful enough as a scroll/wand, this is usually where I get my GH and stoneskin from and some others where 6-12 minutes is enough

I personally think using a shield is asking for trouble more times than not, I know some people who are very good at this and it works for them, and I know there are a few shields with 0% failure on them, but 10-20 damage reduction when things hit for 50ish is just not enough to last for long even with 400HPs thats only about 13 hits & if you have 6 mobs with double attacks ... ummm(yes I've gotten that unlucky even with displacement), and remember for that instant when your casting/healing your not blocking.

I use a lot of webs near the firewalls and follow up with acid blasts and ball lightnings if they get stuck, but whenever I run with other arcanes, they will dump another FW on my webs or just start blasting fireballs.


I just picked up hold monster, and that helps somewhat.

[Postumus]

Don't bother with hate reduction enhancements. Learning how to kite now is a very good idea. As others have said, all you have to do is run in circles and you should be fine. The real trick is learning when to stand still, block, and take some licks so the melees in your group can join in on the beating. At level 11 you should have heavy fortification, or expect to get it very soon, so now is as good a time as any to start experimenting.

Literally keeping a boss from moving is usually hard to do without 4 or 5 people, not because of player skill level but simple geometry. Most bosses move in all directions, and player characters are only about big enough to block 70-90 degrees at a time. If you were running VoN 3 and having this problem, then yes, blame it on the melees, but most of the time there's nothing they can do about it.

So dump the hate reduction lines? I'm down with that since they don't seem to do much for me.

I've got heavy fort robes, deathblock robes, and fearsome robes. I generally swap back and forth from improved false life robes to fearsome. The fearsome annoys some folks, but they seem to keep me alive fairly well. And I do spam diplo when possible (which makes me think a half-elf sorc might have its advantages).


I'm going to swap a first level spell for jump today.


Speaking of spells, I've got the following:


1st: master's touch (soon to be jump), hypno, acid spray, shield

2nd: glitterdust, web, blur, knock

3rd: acid blast, frost lance, haste, prot from energy

4th: ice storm, wall of fire, phatasmal killer

5th: hold monster, ball lightning

With Acid/lighting and fire/ice enhancement lines maxed out.


Wearing the Wrath of Sora Kell set and Shaman set from Red Fens.

[Zigana]

OK, so how do I contain the critters in such a way that the melees can actually hit them? Paralyzers and stuns work like a charm, but I don't see many players in pugs with those.


The trash I'm learning to deal with pretty effectively, it's the bosses surrounded by trash, surrounded by the rest of the party I'm having problems with.


Also, with a melee mentality, I have a hard time running around backwards... I always back myself into a corner or get harried or pull all the mobs away from the melees. I try to bounce back and forth through the firewalls, but I'm still getting tagged - hard - when it comes to the boss.

If your spells aren't instakilling or **** near, so that you still need the melee to beat on them, that's when you need to block (unless you're willing to kite and slowly take them down without the melee help). Even if they melee can't pull aggro off of you, they'll still be getting the flanking bonus to the mobs and they should go down pretty quickly at that point.

Shield block (holding shift, no shield needed) and chug a pot or two as needed, or wand whip yourself or scroll heal, whatever you gotta do. But you shouldn't be taking a ton of damage if you have heavy fort, blur/displace, and stoneskin on while blocking. I do this on both my WF wizzy and my human sorc and have rarely ever been in serious trouble from it.

Send a tell to the healer in the group and let them know that if things get to that point, that's what you'll be doing and to please keep an extra eye on you if they see you're having trouble. Most healers will be okay with it if they know you're aware of what's happening and plan on trying to deal with the damage yourself with just a little help if needed, rather than feeling like you're being one of "those" casters.

As for the boss fights--well, if you're in one that typically requires a caster doing the main brunt of the damage (say, the marut in Von 3, where typically the melees line block him in while you FW/MM him to death from safety), then it's really just communicating what you need and hoping they can work with you. Sometimes, especially in PUGs, that may be easier said then done, and then you just have to use your bag of tricks of kiting until the melee can get their act together and set things up for you. Haste and jump while casting! If you're not in one where you'll be doing the brunt of the damage, then use the spells you can and make sure the melee are buffed with what they need from you. There's no real simple answer to it, it's gonna be adjust your play style for the group and do what you gotta do to get through it. If the melee can't handle it, don't be doing anything to get attention until they can!

[transtemporal]

Are you actually dying when you get aggro OP? Or are you just taking a few points of damage here and there?

If its the later I wouldn't worry about it. If its the former I don't know what you're doing wrong. 180hp combined with stoneskin, displacement (and resists, fireshield) should be more than enough at lvl11.

In fact, it should be enough for you to pick up intimidate and spam it with impunity. Thats what I did on my caster.

[transtemporal]

[edit] Late to the party and badly dressed

[erikbozelie]

aggro is nice, make friends with it!

everytime you dont have aggro its beating on some poor melee. just kite them through your terror webs, fire walls, and other nasty stuff to drop down onto the floor with an good duriation.

haste + jump is an nice way to avoid damage.

[SlogUK]

Yep. In agreement here. If the melees can't block the door for you, bouncybouncybouncy. Displace ss jump haste rage and boing boing boing. After a while you get very good at jumping in a pattern through the wall as they burn behind you. Diplo is your friend too, and high chr makes it possible.

[PopeJual]

Once upon a time, I tried to avoid aggro. Now I sprint ahead of squishy carbon based lifeforms when I'm playing with my Wizard so that I can make sure that I get as much aggro as possible.

If one of the meatsacks in the party wants to take individual mobs off of me, that's fine, but they'll have to pry the aggro off of me with their pointed sticks instead of just getting it for free.

In a PUG, when I have aggro, I know that everyone in the party will survive the fight. When one of the Big Dumb Fighters(tm) has Aggro, I am not 100% sure of the same.

Also, if I have most of the aggro, it means I can cast Displacement on just myself instead of having to waste my spell points on all of those disgusting flesh creatures.


(N.B. this does not apply to Red or Orange names or in Amrath)

[Emili]

(N.B. this does not apply to Red or Orange names or in Amrath)

Oh? Yes it does we're going to send every red/oraged named in every raid and epic your way. Word is out and every Barb, Fighter and Pally is TR'n and respec'n skills to max diplo.

[PopeJual]

Oh? Yes it does we're going to send ever red/oraged named in every raid and epic your way. Word is out and every Barb, Fighter and Pally is TR'n and respec'n skills to max diplo.

I, for one, welcome my new meat creature overlords.

[Emili]

lol blur and displacement doesn't stack

imo its about aggro management. because you can hit things far away, doesn't mean you should be the first person in your party to hit them.

i see this all the time with archers, since they can shoot stuff before melee gets to them. the enemy has the archer on the aggro list first, and even after you hit it a couple times. its gonna go after the archer until the aggro checks again

but if you are caught in that spot, having jump already cast on you(from the start of the quest) makes it easy to jump over the enemies and continue to kite them(haste works well here too )

This ^

Comes down to this - Agro goes to the first person who gets it, it does not leave that person until the agro list is updated on timer plus someone hits a spike to actually change it. Even when spiked it will not change immediately... Intimidate is a small aoe which by-pass it for a short time. If you're not ready to manage agro - then do not take it. There is a lot of refernce on Agro where Eladrin explains the mechanics on these forums.

[Madryoch]

OK, so how do I contain the critters in such a way that the melees can actually hit them? Paralyzers and stuns work like a charm, but I don't see many players in pugs with those.


The trash I'm learning to deal with pretty effectively, it's the bosses surrounded by trash, surrounded by the rest of the party I'm having problems with.


Also, with a melee mentality, I have a hard time running around backwards... I always back myself into a corner or get harried or pull all the mobs away from the melees. I try to bounce back and forth through the firewalls, but I'm still getting tagged - hard - when it comes to the boss.

You have no issue if u get aggro ... the displacement spell at ur lvl will be kinda useless for the time it lasts ... even if u do choose that to have in ur list ...

If u deal so great damage then use a second fireball and kill them or use a firewall and use jump spell and expeditious retreat at least and jump over ur enemies ... u are meant to have a healer or hireling to fill u again once u take some significant damage but no u won't die from enemy damage ... also my advice is don't bother with hardmodes and elite modes till u are lvl 20ish ...since this is ur first life or if u do don't bother to do it more than once per quest ... the fastest exp is normal multiple completions ...

Learn to target ground btw ... helps u catch more than one mobs with one aoe spell and gives u total control over ur firewalls .ground target = right click then make the little targeting circle point to the point u want the spell to land then while u don't have any mob targeted use ur spell and it will go there...


Cast while u are jumping towards the direction u want to move ... means if the spell casting lasts less than ur descend u ll cast it without loosing significant movement speed ...

Be glad that u have aggro ... that means u are doing ur job well ...

As was mentioned the hate reduction enhancements are pretty much useless ... especially when u use something like empowered maximized spell that will deal over 150ish damage at ur lvl while the melees will still hit for 40ish

Hmm another thing that none mentioned i think ... Buy urself a Robe of invulnerability for low lvls up to 14 i guess it should be oki ... since it gives u 5 DR(works on everything i ve encountered at lower lvls) so 5 less damage per hit is significant ...Someone mentioned shield i am not too fond of them or loosing my second hand that could further boost my spell damage or crits or DCs to some shield that i am not proficient with and while it will give some more DR i prefer to move . Moving teaches u how to avoid damage in the future as well ...

Friendly advice ... if u don't have it get as 4th lvl spell phantasmal killer till lvl 14 that u ll get ur FoD. Nice death effect to spam in gianthold while u are not lvl 14 yet... and even better when u are lvl 14 if u have both u can cast one of em when the other is on cooldown which potentially gives u access to one death effect per second . Try not to get carried away and burn ur mana to kill the whole map :P u ll run out eventually...

Finally unless u chug pots i suggest u don't use empower maximize with spells like fireball ... if u only use one firewall per fight i guess it is oki but generally at lvl 8ish for example i remember i was spamming non empowered non maximized fireballs on everything and 2 were enough to kill anything on normal ... which means things went down faster after i gathered the mobs on me...

I am pretty sure some of the forementioned things were things u already knew but i had to pressume u don't and if u do just ignore em .

Good luck on ur sorc . Hopefully if u follow the forementioned tricks u ll find it easy playing one ... and remember healer hirelings are ur friends if u don't have healer in party (unlikely :P) U should be their main focus and not some nub melee who at that lvl tries to play hero and takes damage ...Though i understand their need to contribute somehow .

[Postumus]

Thanks to everyone for all of the great advice.


I was running the lordsmarch quests again tonight and had MUCH better success just from following the advice to use jump and bounce back and forth through my firewalls. I have a long way to go with kiting, it's not what I'm used to, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.


I also started dropping firewalls AFTER the melees engaged the big boss, not before. This bought me more time to react than previously when the boss would zone into my existing spell, tastes the firey goodness, and bull rushe past the meat shields to hurt me and me alone.


Finally, I don't know what people generally think of chain lightning as a spell, but I picked that up tonight when I made level 12 and it was love at first cast for me.


I've always had a tough time in Frame Work kiting - I generally end up kiting my buns up against a pack of angry minotaurs, and either get chopped down from behind, or popped like a zit when I the mobs I was kiting smash me into the mobs I just backed into.


But empowered+maximized chain lightning was a game changer for that quest. Almost no kiting. ZAPPOW! And those minotaurs were dropping like bulls in a slaughterhouse. I think I put down more beef than all of Britain during the mad cow days. I was averaging around 240 damage per mino which made me smile, but I very nearly soiled my shorts when I saw a big fat 493 pop over the head of one minotaur! Yowza!


It was beautiful to see the monks and fighters fighting in a knot with five or six minos, then watch my lightning arc back and forth through the crowd until all that was left were some confused party members standing in a pile of dead bodies.