am I the only one or is there a general grumble factor

[cdemeritt]

Others have touched on this, but as a Cleric, you have far more power over a group than even the leader of the party... Use this to your advantage. For 99% of the content in game, a party needs a cleric more than a cleric needs a party...

This is patently false and is a common misconception. It's actually quite the opposite - 90% of the game (e.g., everything but raids and SOME epics) can be played without the need for a player cleric. You do not have power over a group when your role can be replaced by hirelings or pots. Put another way, you are ONLY worth taking in a group if you can bring significant DPS or utility to the group.

I find the common attitude, that, because you are a cleric, you are more important than anyone else - to be worse than the attitude described in the OP. Don't kid yourself. You are not more or less important than any member of the group.

Ok, to start off, this is not intended to flame.. any snarkyness, snobbery, or other such attitude that might come across in this post is not intended... Just had a bad day at work... It might show...


1: What part of that quote do you find "patently false?" That a Cleric can solo 99% of the game (including Epics and Elite raids) or that a group will need a cleric more than a cleric needs a group? Yes, in a competent group, with knowledgeable strong players, 90% of the game can be played without a cleric... but if the players were the type to not need a cleric, they wouldn't be complaining to the cleric about being a multiclass build as stated in the op, and a gimped healer...

Or are you saying that the part where I said a cleric has more power over a group than even the party leader part is wrong? ok, this is slightly miss worded, I should have said, A cleric often can have more power... How? Why? Well the person with the star has very little power once a quest starts... it's all about getting people to do what you want. Say you are the fighter with the star, and I'm the cleric... once in the quest, you say "heal me" and I say no... what can you do about it? recall and reform... that's it. you can't drop me, (as long as I stay in the quest), you can't force me, you can only ask me... and hope I'll do it. say the quest is 50% done and you recall, drop me, and reform... I'm still in the quest at 50% done, I'll most likely finish the quest without you. Now, I as a cleric say, if you don't stay near me, I won't heal you... well if you can take care of yourself, you are unlikely to be asking me to "heal you" in the first place. people tend to stick with the cleric when they need the cleric to heal them... I can't force people to stick with me, but when they die, I don't need to raise them... No one can force anyone to do anything in quest, but the threat of heal withholding usually form consensus quickly. Now, say you really annoy me, there is greater dispell...

You do not have power over a group when your role can be replaced by hirelings or pots.

Well, then why are you looking for a cleric if a hireling will do? A hireling is barely more than a healbot... and if you are saying healbots are a waste of space (and you did).... And please Bring 10000 pots... I don't want to waste my SP healing you, I'd rather try to outkill you and the arcane combined... (ok in non-epics, the sorc usually wins, but what can I say...)

I find the common attitude, that, because you are a cleric, you are more important than anyone else - to be worse than the attitude described in the OP. Don't kid yourself. You are not more or less important than any member of the group.

The attitude is common because WE DON'T NEED YOU to hold our hand in a quest. most people who play clerics don't need to hide behind the big bad barbarian... If someone is giving you the cleric grief, well leave... sometimes you will get asked back, and the grief giver will be gone... And if you are playing a cleric and need a party, you are probably new or doing something wrong.

[Habreno]

This is patently false and is a common misconception. It's actually quite the opposite - 90% of the game (e.g., everything but raids and SOME epics) can be played without the need for a player cleric. You do not have power over a group when your role can be replaced by hirelings or pots. Put another way, you are ONLY worth taking in a group if you can bring significant DPS or utility to the group.

I find the common attitude, that, because you are a cleric, you are more important than anyone else - to be worse than the attitude described in the OP. Don't kid yourself. You are not more or less important than any member of the group.

1) Granted, the quote I couldn't quote is not true all the time at lower levels; often times people have pots and drink them. Do you expect to run VoD without a healer? GOOD LUCK! Let me know how many times you die. I'd place a bet on over 50 per person, with 25 on any monks.

2) Most of us nearing cap/at cap are not just healers. We do provide DPS/Buffs/CC/other things. We have, at the most, 10 heal spells. We only have to have 8, the other two are optionals I'm sorry, but I think that we don't keep our spellbooks filled with only 8-10 spells

[AtomicMew]

Don't get me wrong, my main is a cleric, and clerics are still my favoritest class in the game. However, it's a fact that cleric is mainly a support class. This being the case, you are much more dependent on the group then the group is on you.

Clerics have the least DPS potential of any class in the game, besides maybe a bard. Stories of clerics out-killing melee classes are greatly exaggerated and are usually due to individual player and gear, rather any systematic difference in power between classes.

You WILL level faster if you group up with a bunch of DPS toons. It isn't necessarily the case the other way around. Not having a healer is common in zerg and TR groups, because potions, gear and knowledge replace most of the support function. That leaves cleric's DPS function which contributes to the group, which, again, is subpar.

However, even average players like myself can zerg it hard with a hireling. Couple that with the fact that some (many) clerics can't even perform the support function properly, losing the small portion of DPS that a potential player-cleric can bring is a good trade-off for the very support the hireling brings.

[notforyou]

If you play anything other than a pure healbot, you will get flak...Usually from clueless people...

Actually, more accurate, if you play a cleric you will get flak...

There are many ways to play a cleric, and many people who think a cleric "should only" be played one way or another...


A cleric can be a nannybot if you want, but many including myself, feel you aren't using your cleric to full potential when you do this...

Yes, as a cleric/FvS, most people expect you will heal the party, and you should let the party know up front if you have no intention of healing/buffing others... Otherwise, you don't need to explain your build, unless you want to or someone is genuinely interested in it.

As a Cleric, 90% of the time you can do what you feel is needed for the success of the group...even if it means bringing all 5 other party members stones to the shrine after you finish the quest however, if you choose to do this, you had better be able to finish the quest by yourself... Failure at this point will not make people happy. There are times (mainly Raids) where you'll be expected to stand in a specific spot and heal, this is usually not personal, just the way to make said fight go easier, and many people get specific instructions at these times.... So long as you do that, your still free to do other things... Now if you are asked to "stand here to heal" and you run into the fight and help the melee's, as long as you don't die and the melees don't die, people will be fine with it... if you die, well, you'll get flak, if the party wipes because you died, expect a lot of nastiness... be sure you can handle what you are about to do before you do it... it'll save you grief.


Others have touched on this, but as a Cleric, you have far more power over a group than even the leader of the party... Use this to your advantage. For 99% of the content in game, a party needs a cleric more than a cleric needs a party... If someone starts giving you grief, tell them in party "Shut up or no heals for you" this will shut them up or pull more venom... However as a cleric you have neutralize poison spell, ignore them... Even the most uber Barbarian isn't going to last long once a healer stops the stream of heals... if they can live without you, it is unlikely they're complaining in the first place.... as a general rule "Don't Annoy the Cleric"


A cleric can be a great deal of fun to play in all it's forms, but it can be the biggest headache in the game at times... and as the cleric, you will see who the really uber people are, and those that just talk big... (as well as who has under 100 hps in a shroud, who doesn't have heavy fort, etc. etc.)

Hope this helps some.

+1 sir. also the clrs i play r typically 17clr/2monk/1rog and i can get nearly all traps, heal, cc, and nuke, yet somehow sum1 always manages to zerg off and die then they complain with a statement similar to '*** y r u not healing me?' as a general rule if they rnt smart enough to stay within range for heals then they dont deserve to be healed

... No one can force anyone to do anything in quest, but the threat of heal withholding usually form consensus quickly. Now, say you really annoy me, there is greater dispell...

lol its so true

[bigolbear]

woo another battle cleric thread.

Yeh man i feel your pain with ***** groups. The question I always ask my self is what 'role' in a group will i be trying to full fill if i make a cleric - and for me this can apply to pure as well as multiclass, battle or not.

The cleric roles as i see them are:
1. heals.
2. killing (be that mele or spells or ranged)
3. defensive casting (buffs and crowdcontrol)


My opinion is that a wel played cleric should always handle atleast 2/3 of these and a very well played cleric should do all 3.

Trouble is when people see the cleric class symbol they expect you to do 1 - 2 and 3 are a bonus or even worse - some one elses job.

I swear the only problem with multiclassed clerics is the class symbol, its come to define us as 'healers', Ive ran some prety extreme splits in the past and the only problem i had was convincing people that i wasnt the main healer.



Let me share a tale of 2 dwarfs. (back when the cap was 16)
Dwarf 1: uncle thorrun bobson. pure cleric, 36 wisdom ~1700 mana ~300 hp ac around 50 fighting axe and sheild, and specced with maximise, empower, empower healing and dwarven war axe proficeincey.

Dwarf 2: his nephew garrel son of drothor. 4/12 fighter cleric. 34 str 20 wisdom ~1000 mana ~450 hp fully speced for 2 handed fighting and specialised in great axe. I called it the templar build (not quite a cleric, not quite a fighter but beter than a paladin in every respect)

Now uncle thorrun was supposed to be a real cleric, whereas his nephew garrel was supposed to occupy a mele role in a group, and before kensai came out this battle cleric actualy hit harder than a similarly built pure dwarven fighter could. he had about 30 less hit points but his saves - importantly will save were much higher not to mention nightsheild. Garrels job in a group was to cast the divine buffs for the party then mele with every one else and if the main cleric went down he could raise, a few spot heals along the way were always nice too.

Despite being truly happy with that character in the end he got relegated to guild and friends groups only because I simply got sick of having to explain my self to moron group leaders and puggers who saw that little white/blue cleric symbol and jumped to the conclusion I was ok for party healing.

I used to take great pleasure in out killing barbarians, fighers and especialy paladins.

Now the fact is that this build was in essence an exploit of a kind (ala exploiter build) when buffed he was simply beter than a fighter in almost all respects and more importantly much beter than a pally, This has ofcourse since been remedied with the changes to smite the additions of capstones and the additions of prestiges - im not recomending this build in todays DDO.

garrel eventualy ended his career as a 6/14 fighter cleric - hes now in a retirement home as i jumped the euro boat early and im not playing on GLand. He lived and died by the axe, all he wanted was a barbarian badge but it was never to be. RIP the dwarven templar.