Dwarf: Inferior race needing a change?

[tgu]

As I look at dwarf, I start to think they need an overhaul to be competitive. Right now, it seems the only appeal to dwarf is for 28-point build f2p players, and even then for most every race human, elf, halfing have advantages.

But putting aside f2p, P2P and veteran players to the game...do you feel this race is inferior?

WF vs. Dwarf - WF has more damage, has immunities, casters HUGE advantage, DR

H-orc vs. Dwarf - HO gets a lot more damage, and gives up small con/racial advantages

Human vs. Dwarf - Extra feat is best on all but fighter, Wizard ...give up small con/racials for an extra feat/stat points

Half-Elf vs. Dwarf - all the perks of elf and with past life enhancements, extra sneak, and versatility half-elf can surpass dwarfs minor gains

I get with some post Dwarf may look good and maybe in some ways have slight advantages over human...but with WF/Half-orc...the only advantage spot is "maybe" healers...as casters - WF/Human/Drow, Melee - WF/HO

Will Dwarf ever see changes, to help bring them in line?

Suggestions:

+2 con
+2 str - getting both from enhancements

Dwarven Drunken Master = +4 dmg, -2 to hit

Dwarven War Master= +2 dmg enhancement OR possibly a free damage feat (melee get melee feat, casters get caster feat)

[elujin]

dwarfs make for supirior light monk stunners (wis based) and easy access to void 4

[Jaid314]

dwarf is fine. free Daxe proficiency can save a feat, since it's nearly as good as khopesh with the enhancements.

dwarven tactics is great.

con bonus is awesome.

cha penalty is not a huge problem for most.

they get good TWF and THF options pretty easily.

dwarven tactics is a nice boost.

dwarven armor enhancements make them excellent AC tanks, if you choose to go that route.

overall, dwarf has quite a bit going for it. it's not the best at everything, but it's pretty good.

[Ystradmynach]

Dwarves are perfectly fine combat wise, in fact when the game started they were considered the most powerful race out there. Any additions to the dwarves should be about adding more flavor and making more choices viable.

Remember, they still have a racial PrE that has to be implemented. Plus, I'd like to see a revamp of their dragonmark. I don't know why you think dwarves need a strength bonus, they are not H-orcs and shouldn't be in a ****ing contest with them, as dwarves have a different niche.

[sirgog]

They aren't uber like they used to be, but they have the highest HP of any race (equal to Warforged), have amazing saves and don't have the WF healing penalty, making them the most survivable race in any content without healing curses, plus they have enhancements to one of the best two-handed weapons.

[Cardtrick]

Compared to the poor elves and drow, dwarves are an excellent race. They're probably the best race for fighters, and one of the best for monks -- dwarven tactics is a huge advantage. The dwarven axe feat and enhancements are great for feat-starved characters -- barbarians, melee clerics, war chanter bards, etc. The con bonus and enhancements, 4 levels of racial toughness enhancements, and the spell saves enhancements make them very resilient.

Over all, they're a strong choice; unlike elf, drow, or (sometimes) halfling, picking a dwarf for flavor won't gimp a character.

If you wanted to boost them a bit, without overpowering them, one reasonable possibility would be to give them a couple of healing amp enhancements -- could make them a stronger competitor to warforged and half orcs for barbarians and fighters.

[morticianjohn]

Go see the thread like this about elves. With Half-elves, and drow there is really no reason to take elf at all. At least dwarves have a niche.

[jeremyt]

Fully disagree overall the racial enhancements cover tactics, saves and for most melee damage. like others have said, tied for highest HP added to no healing penalties, shield enhancements etc they are a great well rounded race.

I would like to see racial weapon enhancement lines for warhammers and heavy picks though to be able to diversify. Which i feel fits dwarven flavor perfectly. Probably making each enhancement line exclusive to the others would help balance it out.

[tgu]

dwarfs make for supirior light monk stunners (wis based) and easy access to void 4

I would think there are much better options for a light monk, superior is definitely not a word I'd use. Secondary/would work. So many better choice.

They aren't uber like they used to be, but they have the highest HP of any race (equal to Warforged), have amazing saves and don't have the WF healing penalty, making them the most survivable race in any content without healing curses, plus they have enhancements to one of the best two-handed weapons.

I don't see how having an extra 50-60hp is going to help as a niche, people will usually have good saves or not, WF has so much more to give, and the enhancements are subpar to the current game. You know this I bet, but chose not to want to believe it. Dwarf is outclasses.

Compared to the poor elves and drow, dwarves are an excellent race. They're probably the best race for fighters, and one of the best for monks -- dwarven tactics is a huge advantage. The dwarven axe feat and enhancements are great for feat-starved characters -- barbarians, melee clerics, war chanter bards, etc. The con bonus and enhancements, 4 levels of racial toughness enhancements, and the spell saves enhancements make them very resilient.

Over all, they're a strong choice; unlike elf, drow, or (sometimes) halfling, picking a dwarf for flavor won't gimp a character.

If you wanted to boost them a bit, without overpowering them, one reasonable possibility would be to give them a couple of healing amp enhancements -- could make them a stronger competitor to warforged and half orcs for barbarians and fighters.

I see how elves (not so much drow) get left behind. I would like to see dwarves and elves get niche's to really leave open the option of being a good race...not a strictly F2P race.

Healing enhancements is interesting, I was just thinking along the lines of more melee/combat prowess.

Fully disagree overall the racial enhancements cover tactics, saves and for most melee damage. like others have said, tied for highest HP added to no healing penalties, shield enhancements etc they are a great well rounded race.

I would like to see racial weapon enhancement lines for warhammers and heavy picks though to be able to diversify. Which i feel fits dwarven flavor perfectly. Probably making each enhancement line exclusive to the others would help balance it out.

Again...saves aren't going to matter, tactics are only so good, HP is nice but chosing a race for a bit more HP and no healing penalty would favor several races over dwarf. If you are crazy about con, most can start at 16-18 and it will be close. The racial weapon line is not all it's cracked up to be.

Here is the last bit ...I feel people are sugar coating this. Oh, dwarfs have a little bit of this, this and this. That means they are fine, really? They are becoming a F2P race like elves and to some extend drow. They have minor gains, but if health - WF, if melee - Half-orc/human/wf, if caster - drow, human, WF.

[die]

dont forget about dwarven faith = more mana for clr

[grodon9999]

Dorfs and Elves should get +4 to-hit/damage from their enhancements for less APs than it currently costs for the +2.

Add in the Dwarven Defender PRE and all will be golden.

[sirgog]

I don't see how having an extra 50-60hp is going to help as a niche, people will usually have good saves or not, WF has so much more to give, and the enhancements are subpar to the current game. You know this I bet, but chose not to want to believe it. Dwarf is outclasses.

WF also have an absolutely crippling penalty of -35% healing amp (assuming Healer's Friend 1) which makes them appaling choices for tanks whenever healing curses aren't being thrown, and makes them a real liability in the eDQ2 ball method and in Shroud. The ability to be arcane healed sometimes makes up for this and sometimes doesn't.

Half-orcs are the glass cannons of DDO - fragile and dangerous. Highest DPS, and the first to die. They are the best race in easy content (that you know you can beat and just want to beat fast) and among the worst in hard content. There's no truly difficult content at the moment, so they are the best race overall for melees (once geared) at the moment. This will change someday.

[grodon9999]

Half-orcs are the glass cannons of DDO - fragile and dangerous. Highest DPS, and the first to die. They are the best race in easy content (that you know you can beat and just want to beat fast) and among the worst in hard content. There's no truly difficult content at the moment, so they are the best race overall for melees (once geared) at the moment. This will change someday.

I'm of the mind that dwarf is the best race for a melee's first life. They have a built-in HP item and access to good cheap weapons while leveling up. Once you're geared up on the basics (GS weapon or two, HP item, standard raid loot, etc . . .) TR into something else.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Dwarves are perfectly fine combat wise, in fact when the game started they were considered the most powerful race out there. Any additions to the dwarves should be about adding more flavor and making more choices viable.

Remember, they still have a racial PrE that has to be implemented. Plus, I'd like to see a revamp of their dragonmark. I don't know why you think dwarves need a strength bonus, they are not H-orcs and shouldn't be in a ****ing contest with them, as dwarves have a different niche.

Depending how dwarven defender works (have a feeling there will be some differences to stalwart defender) & how any stances in it or whatever stack up with other auras, paladin tanking stances etc, they could end up being pretty much the ideal race for intimitanks - indeed, i've seen a few builds (on forums and in action) of very effective melee clerics/FvS fully capable of tanking.. add in a tanking based PrE and you've got a character that while niche, is very, very effective in that niche.

As for their dragonmark... yeah, that REALLY needs improving - an AoE damage effect that would be close to worthless on anything beyond casual even if you got it without spending feats. A better version for warding effects might be:
Least: slow trap (slowing enemies will be more functional than doing a tiny bit of damage)
Lesser: a save & AC boosting aura effect (make it so it stacks with paladin aura maybe & effect increases with level, but is activated with a fixed duration al la RS aura)
Greater: symbol of stunning (enemies entering the warded area have a chance of being stunned.. never a bad thing)
The "protect an area" theme would be maintained, but it would have a lot more funtionality

[FlyingTurtle]

Also, don't compare free races to pay races, the balance is supposed to skew towards the pay races.

[grodon9999]

Also, don't compare free races to pay races, the balance is supposed to skew towards the pay races.

Duergar FTW! hell yeah I'd pay for some ubber-dorfs.

[tgu]

WF also have an absolutely crippling penalty of -35% healing amp (assuming Healer's Friend 1) which makes them appaling choices for tanks whenever healing curses aren't being thrown, and makes them a real liability in the eDQ2 ball method and in Shroud. The ability to be arcane healed sometimes makes up for this and sometimes doesn't.

Half-orcs are the glass cannons of DDO - fragile and dangerous. Highest DPS, and the first to die. They are the best race in easy content (that you know you can beat and just want to beat fast) and among the worst in hard content. There's no truly difficult content at the moment, so they are the best race overall for melees (once geared) at the moment. This will change someday.

Two thoughts came to mind.

1. WF aren't perfect
2. How are Half-orc the first to die? Seems kinda vague...

I do think races will change someday to be more balanced, but right now who rolls a dwarf/halfling/elf as their serious non-TR main?

[Chubsta]

Two thoughts came to mind.

1. WF aren't perfect
2. How are Half-orc the first to die? Seems kinda vague...

I do think races will change someday to be more balanced, but right now who rolls a dwarf/halfling/elf as their serious non-TR main?

Almost every one of my toons is either dwarf or halfling.

[die]

now sir with all due respect , i would not call my Half Orc a glass cannon over 700 hp raged he's pretty tough

[Alabore]

I would like to see racial weapon enhancement lines for warhammers and heavy picks though to be able to diversify.

Half-orcs are the glass cannons of DDO - fragile and dangerous. Highest DPS, and the first to die.

...

I recall a couple of threads about Dwarves lagging behind Horcs, when the new race was first implemented.

People TR'ed into horcs, and they seemed unstoppable, also thanks to twink gear and Hero stat lines.
Then Enhs consolidated, Helves got 3 tiers of Racial Toughness, and racial healing amp.
And Horcs stopped at 2.

...

I would tend to agree Dwarves are fine.
I would like a hammer/pick Enhancement line; it would make sense, and further broaden dwarves' tactical flexibility.

I would also like to see dragonmarks streamlined into a single feat, with AP-bought tiers.
While it might deviate from pnp canon, clickies/potions are very common and easily obtained; dragonmarks are considered by many vets/builder a flavour choice.

Pnp is a thing; DDO is a different beast, though.

...

Since we're talking about f2p vs p2p races, I'm wondering whether the whole concept of p2p races/classes is a good idea.
Some players tend to think that store-bought options are just an easy button, a way to buy your way through the game.

IMHO devs should have kept all races/classes f2p, and ensure all had equal chances to excel at some key roles.
The idea you either are WF if caster or monk, and Horc if anything else, does not really appeal to me.