Mistake, or greatest build of all time?!

[Jahmin]

12 is bad because the IC song suffers too much for the little gain you get from the other classes. 12 bard misses +1/1 for level 14 and +1/0 for inspired attack III. I just don't see the point of being a bard and not being at least 14.

This - Bard12 is BAD... really, really bad. You lose +2/+1 AND your 5th lvl spells.

Maybe, but I can see a player going for Fighter 6 for feats, more haste boost, another strength enhancement, and kensai I on weapons over +2 to hit and +1 to damage for the party and still keep PRE II on the bard, level 4 spells, other bard enhancements missing on a bard 8 splash while also keeping evasion.

You invite a Bard for party DPS. If the Bard has some of his own, great! But never at the expense of the Party's.

I would not necessarily discredit a Bard 12 build as a bad build. I would be curious what the player did with those other levels but it's possible to build characters that can do the job still.

Really irrelevant what he did: those 8 lost levels CANNOT bring more DPS than even 2 more levels of Bard.

We can agree to disagree if you want, but I still think a level 12 cutoff makes more sense than level 15 for the AC song or level 18 for future proofing (or suggestion song).

Comparing Bard12 to Bard15 is folly. Bard15 is bad as well: lose of lvl6 spells is inexcuseable at cap20, especially since AC song is even more useless now. But if nothing else Bard15 is NOT Bard12, having at least 14 levels of Bard.

Now do not get me wrong, if you are making some awesome solo build, go right ahead. One must enjoy what they are playing. But for a party slot, Bard14 and ideally Bard16 is required - otherwise the party leader is better off with a real melee and a real Bard.

[Aashrym]

This - Bard12 is BAD... really, really bad. You lose +2/+1 AND your 5th lvl spells.


You invite a Bard for party DPS. If the Bard has some of his own, great! But never at the expense of the Party's.


Really irrelevant what he did: those 8 lost levels CANNOT bring more DPS than even 2 more levels of Bard.



Comparing Bard12 to Bard15 is folly. Bard15 is bad as well: lose of lvl6 spells is inexcuseable at cap20, especially since AC song is even more useless now. But if nothing else Bard15 is NOT Bard12, having at least 14 levels of Bard.

Now do not get me wrong, if you are making some awesome solo build, go right ahead. One must enjoy what they are playing. But for a party slot, Bard14 and ideally Bard16 is required - otherwise the party leader is better off with a real melee and a real Bard.

Those 8 levels actually can bring more DPS to the party than 8 bard levels, depending on circumstances and party make up. They can also bring less for the same reason.

I would normally expect 14th level cutoff for personal DPS but if someone has 12 bard levels I would not dismiss it outright. +5 to hit and +7 to damage on a warchanter is still pretty good compared to a pure 20 virt or singer and the bard still has recklessness.

If you are inviting a bard just for party DPS WC12 works to fill that and can have some personal dps to boot.

I do not invite them strictly for dps tho. I like the CC when needed and healing too. Fascinate works regardless of level based on perform skill and item healing is locked into caster level on the item so when the group is item healing all this bard needs is wand and scroll mastery IV. So this bard would meet party needs and likely be good at soloing.

I'm just not that quick to judge it as bad.

[JoeyWMD]

This build will be twinked to all hell, It gains Frenzy/Rage along with the buffs needed (WC2 Songs) And extended blurs etc. Can do traps EASILY and more importantly has the distinct ability to be able to out DPS and lead kill counts over many others for the level it is at 15 currently very rarely do I not top the kill counts and if then it's only a handful +/-5 the worst I've fallen behind is -12 from a level 18 Kensai3 2nd TR but I was also eating and had my nephew on my lap helping me play. The fighter was at about the same gear wise if not better. This is with minimal use of my 3 rage clicks as of now as well.

Point is this deep splash may not look it to you but it's more than capable of traps (**** for spot but most splashes of rogue have the problem) Hits hard and fast without his rage, when he does rage he boasts criticals at level 15 on blue/white/black dragons of 140+ (quite high for a gimped DPS I think) often on the higher end 215 being my max, this is without madstone and only a +1 tome into strength improvement can be made and then I'm looking at much more damage not to mention Barb Damage boost (pre req for frenzy) Which isn't even hot barred.

[Aries1040]

I would do a barb life first as you will get alot out of the pastlife feat