Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
12 is bad because the IC song suffers too much for the little gain you get from the other classes. 12 bard misses +1/1 for level 14 and +1/0 for inspired attack III. I just don't see the point of being a bard and not being at least 14.
This - Bard12 is BAD... really, really bad. You lose +2/+1 AND your 5th lvl spells.

Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
Maybe, but I can see a player going for Fighter 6 for feats, more haste boost, another strength enhancement, and kensai I on weapons over +2 to hit and +1 to damage for the party and still keep PRE II on the bard, level 4 spells, other bard enhancements missing on a bard 8 splash while also keeping evasion.
You invite a Bard for party DPS. If the Bard has some of his own, great! But never at the expense of the Party's.

Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
I would not necessarily discredit a Bard 12 build as a bad build. I would be curious what the player did with those other levels but it's possible to build characters that can do the job still.
Really irrelevant what he did: those 8 lost levels CANNOT bring more DPS than even 2 more levels of Bard.

Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
We can agree to disagree if you want, but I still think a level 12 cutoff makes more sense than level 15 for the AC song or level 18 for future proofing (or suggestion song).
Comparing Bard12 to Bard15 is folly. Bard15 is bad as well: lose of lvl6 spells is inexcuseable at cap20, especially since AC song is even more useless now. But if nothing else Bard15 is NOT Bard12, having at least 14 levels of Bard.

Now do not get me wrong, if you are making some awesome solo build, go right ahead. One must enjoy what they are playing. But for a party slot, Bard14 and ideally Bard16 is required - otherwise the party leader is better off with a real melee and a real Bard.