Cleric VS FvS

[Bozone]

Doesn't Divine Might I-IV require Charisma 14, 16, 18 and 20? Enhancements don't count for that, unless the Cleric line is different than the Paladin DM.

[bryanmeerkat]

Doesn't Divine Might I-IV require Charisma 14, 16, 18 and 20? Enhancements don't count for that, unless the Cleric line is different than the Paladin DM.

It will be divine Might 3 , 2 level ups and a tome +2 for 18 pure

[sweez]

The main difference, I find, is that I am weakest when the proverbial stuff hits the fan - I can NOT heal as fast as my cleric can. The cooldown timers on a FvS are just much slower.

When the proverbial stuff hits the fan and you're on a FvS, you don't heal, you don't rez, you throw a BB, wing, pop a free clw on yourself, rinse, repeat. Once everything is dead, feel free to rez people.

[bryanmeerkat]

When the proverbial stuff hits the fan and you're on a FvS, you don't heal, you don't rez, you throw a BB, wing, pop a free clw on yourself, rinse, repeat. Once everything is dead, feel free to rez people.

Wheras on a cleric you just throw the bb , circle the bb and let your aura keep you up . Works too

[sweez]

And the truth is, I get a lot of FvS healing the said barb for less than 400 with the heal spell where a cleric would be healing near 700.

For a very simple reason - to even be competitive to FvS, clerics have to take their PrE. To take their PrE, they have to take Empower Healing. Not saying Emp Healing is a bad feat, it's just that with a FvS you have a choice, with a Cleric... not so much, unless you want to gimp yourself on purpose.

And taking Empower, Maximize, Heighten, Quicken, SF and GSF: evocation (if you're going evocation-spec) or Improved Crit, Power Attack, etc. (if you're going melee) as well as Toughness and Extend means you're have to give something up for Emp Healing, or give up Emp Healing itself.

I gave up Emp Healing on my evocation FvS, and I do have some problems with single target healing, since I'm missing any feats to buff up my single heals. However, my mass cures are on par with anyone's, so basically the only times I ever wish I'd taken Emp Healing are when healing the Horoth tank or something similar.

As for which class makes a "better healer", I sincerely hope most of you guys realize how silly you sound in your bickering. The difference between a fully heal-spec'd (I can't imagine why anyone would want to roll a fully heal spec'd divine but whatever) FvS and Cleric is negligible enough to mostly fall upon player skill and quest pre-knowledge. Having 75% boosted Empowered Heals and bursts/aura doesn't make someone a better healer by default, same with larger mana pool and free CLW.

[elujin]

if you want short swords i would build like the elf 18/2 fvs monk but elf scimitars would be beter weapons then shortswords the faiths are difrent too undying a free rez evry 10 min for elf or vulkoor big **s scorpion guy evry 10 min for drow the rest is the same i would look up inpaqt's build
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561 .

[jwdaniels]

For a very simple reason - to even be competitive to FvS, clerics have to take their PrE. To take their PrE, they have to take Empower Healing. Not saying Emp Healing is a bad feat, it's just that with a FvS you have a choice, with a Cleric... not so much, unless you want to gimp yourself on purpose.

And taking Empower, Maximize, Heighten, Quicken, SF and GSF: evocation (if you're going evocation-spec) or Improved Crit, Power Attack, etc. (if you're going melee) as well as Toughness and Extend means you're have to give something up for Emp Healing, or give up Emp Healing itself.

I gave up Emp Healing on my evocation FvS, and I do have some problems with single target healing, since I'm missing any feats to buff up my single heals. However, my mass cures are on par with anyone's, so basically the only times I ever wish I'd taken Emp Healing are when healing the Horoth tank or something similar.

As for which class makes a "better healer", I sincerely hope most of you guys realize how silly you sound in your bickering. The difference between a fully heal-spec'd (I can't imagine why anyone would want to roll a fully heal spec'd divine but whatever) FvS and Cleric is negligible enough to mostly fall upon player skill and quest pre-knowledge. Having 75% boosted Empowered Heals and bursts/aura doesn't make someone a better healer by default, same with larger mana pool and free CLW.

Without Empower Healing, how can you say your mass cures are on par with anyone's? By definitions, everything else being equal, your mass cures will only do 2/3 of what anyone else's will do.

That's been my point all allong - Favored Souls generally focus on melee or casting but still heal very well. Clerics, maybe because of their single PrE, focus on healing extremely well and have enough spell slots (and only one casting slot to focus on) so that they can also provide excellent crowd control. Both classes play very differently.

Based on what the OP is asking for, though, it sounds to me like they're looking for a FvS.

[sweez]

Wheras on a cleric you just throw the bb , circle the bb and let your aura keep you up . Works too

Yeah especially when you're chained/triple harried.

[sweez]

Without Empower Healing, how can you say your mass cures are on par with anyone's? By definitions, everything else being equal, your mass cures will only do 2/3 of what anyone else's will do.

I have regular Empower, which works on mass cures (as well as on BB/cometfall/etc). Same bonus, slightly higher SP cost, but I'm not gonna run out of SP unless I (or the rest of the party) do something stupid anyway.

Both classes play very differently.

Maybe when it comes to melee toons, when it comes to evocation spec'd toons it's not that different at all - get your bladebarrier DC and damage (possibly Implosion spell pen/DC for non-epics, but even there BB is still more powerful) as high as possible while still maintaining enough healing spec to heal raids without any issues. With a FvS you'll have more mobility (wings) and durability (DR, stacking resists), with a Cleric more flexibility (more spells, spell swapping) in spell chouce, yet less flexibility with feats (Emp healing), although that is offset by the bonus you'll get to Emp healing. With a cleric you'll have aura/burst, with FvS more SP/free CLW.

I've noticed that a lot of people for some reason think non-melee FvS are inherently "more offensive" than non-melee clerics, when it's all a matter of build/playstyle.

[Kamo]

Hopefully the fvs pre measures up too RS.

[Tumarek]

Maybe if someone posted some melee cleric builds that are better than melee FvS builds we could clear this nonsense up

Hmm Horc 18cleric 2 fighter

Max str and con... dumpe rest / if TR put some points into char wis

full THF line, power attack, thoughness, IC slashing, Empower healing, quicken and extended

With Fighter Haste boost and Horc enhancements will do about the same dps then WF FVS

around 10 trurns wich heal at about ~24 per tick plus 18% chance at 50-90

HP at around 600 with some greensteel love

SP at 1500 <- this is where the WF FvS will be far better...

You can heal with aura most of the time without taking healing brakes. Doesnt make the WF FVS look shabby but get the job done... sometimes better, sometimes not as good... depending on how much you have to activly heal.

Also could lower con and put it into char to get devine might for more DPS. I like HP more though...

[transtemporal]

I see a lot of melee FvS but not many clerics. I have a TR cleric and I plan to TR to a cleric again. I like doing some melee but I am unsure how to plan the build. One thing I love about the cleric is the Turning and bursts. Why are the FvS more popular?

Wings probably. It is the one thing I love about my fvs.

I really can't fathom why melee fvs are so popular. They don't have aura, they don't have bursts, they don't have divine might, the weapon choices are bad.

[SEMPER]

I don't think anyone has tried to make that argument, because it would be silly.

why would it be silly ? Just because there clerics doesn't mean they wouldn't be good at melee , if the cleric has enough charisma for divine might II or III and and a decent starting str and con they will do the same damage as a FVS , just with a little bit less mana , but with RS they can make up for that loss imho

[Jeromio]

Wings probably. It is the one thing I love about my fvs.

I really can't fathom why melee fvs are so popular. They don't have aura, they don't have bursts, they don't have divine might, the weapon choices are bad.

It's on the melee FVS when the DR is really useful.

The combination of DR 13-15, epic SoS, wings and almost infinite self healing makes a FVS a very capabable and sturdy melee. It's not everyones cup of tea to have to kite through BB all the time.

Greatswords and scimitars are not really bad weapon choices.

[Wurmheart]

It's on the melee FVS when the DR is really useful.

The combination of DR 13-15, epic SoS, wings and almost infinite self healing makes a FVS a very capabable and sturdy melee. It's not everyones cup of tea to have to kite through BB all the time.

Greatswords and scimitars are not really bad weapon choices.

scimitars are a great weapon, but fsv's don't have alot of feats to spare so the best build to use them would probally be a 18/2 build. Which is quite a shame imho
Only wf favoured souls get a real advantage with greatswords as you wouldn't need to pick all 3 2handed feats so can stay 20 for all that goodness.

also the 10 dr is at best a 5dr difference at most, since there's plenty of items that give dr.
and there's the stoneskin clickies and earthen gaurd which makes having that 10 dr easy for other chars as well.
the free spells are nice but seems only the bad weapon choices get the nice spells ;/
invis and a cure are great, shield and command undead are just plain bad.
and searing light for the aa fsv builds is just plain weird, why would they need a unlimited ranged dmg spell that pretty much copies a arrow? xD


more on topic:

As i see it fsv get's some advantages like:
-way better mobility, wings and jump as skill makes clerics look like snails
-better reflex saves, most high dmg my cleric takes is off failed reflex saves which favoured souls have less to worry about
-bonus to some nice weapon choices scimi/greatsword
-More sp
-more hp if you can fit the enchantments in
-more elemental res
-10 dr if lvl 20 fsv, and more if warforged

Where as cleric gets:
-More spells, so easier to combine offensive casting with healing and buffing
-divine might, nice + to dmg (not a fan of this myself as i'd rather pump my to hit up first)
-easier to multiclass as a 18/2 splash since you still get a butload of spells and the cap isn't that super anyway (as long you can keep people alive that is)
-improved healing, 25% over fsv with emp healing so often also better heals/mass heals then a fsv (for who empower is more tempting)
-Radiant servant heals and recovering turns, which can still make a huge difference depending on what you're running
-Higher dc potential, 1 more wis of enchantments and 2 more if taking a monk splash for +1.5 dc
-Life saving capstone which is mostly usefull in abbot/tod or around real bad people xD

tough i do hope the new fsv pre makes using other weapons then scimmi/gs on fsv at least a bit more worthwhile

[transtemporal]

It's on the melee FVS when the DR is really useful.

The combination of DR 13-15, epic SoS, wings and almost infinite self healing makes a FVS a very capabable and sturdy melee. It's not everyones cup of tea to have to kite through BB all the time.

Greatswords and scimitars are not really bad weapon choices.

Meh. I got half way through a melee FvS build with all the hopeful plans for claw set, tod sets, esos and dragonscale helm/docent and then ran the numbers and found it was barely 65% of my THF fighters DPS. Its not that it isn't "decent" damage but its too much investment for me.

[Jeromio]

Meh. I got half way through a melee FvS build with all the hopeful plans for claw set, tod sets, esos and dragonscale helm/docent and then ran the numbers and found it was barely 65% of my THF fighters DPS. Its not that it isn't "decent" damage but its too much investment for me.

I only tried to explain the reasons why some might find it fun to play a melee FVS. The DPS is quite far from a top notch min maxed DPS build. It's the incredible survivability in conjunction with decent DPS that makes it work.

In groups it's also great to be able to be versatile and be able to heal the raid or help out with DPS... or a bit of both. For some reason I find that groups are usually not very accepting when it comes to battle clerics, while most don't have anything against a melee FVS.

Personally I've got real DPS builds as well as a tank, arcanes and healers plus my beloved melee WF FVS. My FVS is usually running around soloing and farming stuff when not raiding with the guild. I prefer to either play with my guildies or to solo, so it's great for farming Amrath when there is low guild activity.

For those who don't know if to make a FVS or Cleric; make a couple of both classes and try them out! The experiences are quite different.

[enntense]

Few things to think about.
1. Leveling up. Running undead dungeons with a RS cleric is stupid, run as far as you can and push the free win button.
2. Spell points. A high Cha RS cleric has a sheet ton of turns(20+, think about that), they mostly don't use SP except to buff, and panic heal.
3.Epics. It doesnt matter what melee skills you have, those mobs are held. You're going to hit them. Dual heavy picks on a cleric with no feats? Sure.

[bryanmeerkat]

Meh. I got half way through a melee FvS build with all the hopeful plans for claw set, tod sets, esos and dragonscale helm/docent and then ran the numbers and found it was barely 65% of my THF fighters DPS. Its not that it isn't "decent" damage but its too much investment for me.

True but the fighter DPs drops to zero when his points run out , a FVS drops to zero when his hit points run out after his CLW runs out

[jwdaniels]

why would it be silly ? Just because there clerics doesn't mean they wouldn't be good at melee , if the cleric has enough charisma for divine might II or III and and a decent starting str and con they will do the same damage as a FVS , just with a little bit less mana , but with RS they can make up for that loss imho

The FvS gets class HP enhancements, which the cleric does not, as well as melee class feats, which again the cleric does not. Furthermore, if you're pumping Str, Con, and Cha you have to sacrifice wisdom, lowering the save DCs of your spells and diminishing your crowd control ability making you less versatile and hurting your ability to prevent damage before it happens. Most importantly, the biggest advantage that a RS has over the FvS is the ability to heal for big numbers when needed - the RS can get higher numbers than a FvS. If you sacrifice the healing ability to spec the cleric for melee, you're diluting your greatest strength.

So I say it would be silly because you're creating a roughly equivalent melee character, but with fewer HP and SP, while at the same time diminishing both the versatility and the greatest strength of your class.