Gimpwizards

[bryanmeerkat]

So I recently commented that currently Sorcs are basically bad wizards , and a few people disagreed with me , not enough to explain why or even comment that they disagreed , but disagree'd they did .

I am not here to argue that out , but Id like to know what a sorc has to offer compared to a wizard that I am missing here . I see the extra spellpoints but both PM and AM get very cheap abilities to balance that , is there anything else out there ?

I know sorcs are waiting on there Pre's but at this time is there anything that makes them stand there ground with a wizzie ?

Heres hoping you get your Savant soon

[stille_nacht]

it is mostly because wizards get higher CC save DCs then sorcs do, both as pale master and archmage. sorc sp has also been partially mitigated, as you said, pale master and archmage both get cheap abilities/ more sp. (my archmage, for example has 2616 sp, and almost never runs out, even when spam nuking harry). Sorcs simply dont bring much to the table that is "special" per se.

Their smaller spell selection, and inability to switch in convenient spells (mostly applying to quests that require abnormal spells like HoX), and possible exclusion of spells that werent as useful at level (web, for example), makes them unable to perform their "role" in soem quests.

Their larger sp pool, as i have said, does not matter nearly as much as it used to.

Their quicker spell casting is nice, but doesnt really matter, because nuking is not an effective form of dps. it does have good self reconning, but This benefit only applies to WF, which are pretty common. However, in most endgame content, the wizard will be healed/ standing in the back most of the time, so unless you are doing a tukaw build, it matter less then the below point. i am unsure if they have quicker cool downs on their spells

In addition to this, and this is the major one, wizards flatly get higher CC spell DCs. Seeing as endgame "important" caster work consists of mass hold thrown out, CC is the end all be all of casters as of now, and Sorc underperforms wizard.

[Madryoch]

it is mostly because wizards get higher CC save DCs then sorcs do, both as pale master and archmage. sorc sp has also been partially mitigated, as you said, pale master and archmage both get cheap abilities/ more sp. (my archmage, for example has 2616 sp, and almost never runs out, even when spam nuking harry). Sorcs simply dont bring much to the table that is "special" per se.

Their smaller spell selection, and inability to switch in convenient spells (mostly applying to quests that require abnormal spells like HoX), and possible exclusion of spells that werent as useful at level (web, for example), makes them unable to perform their "role" in soem quests.

Their larger sp pool, as i have said, does not matter nearly as much as it used to.

Their quicker spell casting is nice, but doesnt really matter, because nuking is not an effective form of dps. it does have good self reconning, but This benefit only applies to WF, which are pretty common. However, in most endgame content, the wizard will be healed/ standing in the back most of the time, so unless you are doing a tukaw build, it matter less then the below point. i am unsure if they have quicker cool downs on their spells

In addition to this, and this is the major one, wizards flatly get higher CC spell DCs. Seeing as endgame "important" caster work consists of mass hold thrown out, CC is the end all be all of casters as of now, and Sorc underperforms wizard.

Heh forgive me for the next comment but i am wondering ... Are u not satisfied enough with ur wizards that u come to the sorc forums to mock us cause we still lack our PREs and u think u are uber jsut cause at the previous patch u got urs fixed and made? :P

I ll try to explain why I am angry ... It is true that the average sorc is underpowered compared to the average wizard ... When they get geared with proper build though i am possitive that even without pres they might be better than a wizard :P

The Reason is Simple ... Half cooldowns on spells rounded down

U say DCs this DCs that ... i dunno what ur Enchant DC (cc DC mostly) is as wizard but i think that a sorcerer with 41 DC enchant UNBUFFED has more chance to be more effective than a 44 DC archmage when a sorc has mass hold every 2 seconds while a wizard has it every 5.(applies to most spells)

You can have 3k sp without having mental toughness feats so even if our spells cost more i think the 400 sp difference makes up to some degree for it.

Wizards can have more feats and that's the major bonus a wizard has atm compared to us ''gimps'' as u d call us. Damagewise ... hmmm maybe i am not as good as good geared dpsers of melee origins atm BUT i am considered a very powerful dpser with greater might of the abishai and capstone and eardweller and half the cooldowns on my damaging spells (cast em twice as often). My only issue with that ? is mana consumption...

I might be unable to heal using negative energy spells but i can use heal scroll without fail (40 UMD) along with all other 6th lvl or lower lvl clerical scrolls ... hell i can use ressurection and greater restoration . I can res a dead healer with decent hp instead of ressing him to die again ... and guess what i can do it as long a si have scrolls not once per rest :P and all that by only switching 1 item (my weapon) to the specific divine scroll and back.

U also mentioned spell selection ... Hm it is tru e that i soemtimes find myself wishing i had more spells in my arsenal yet they useful and must spells are few in number and some others u can have as scrolls ... So no i think i can live with my shorter spell selection...

I still believe that 41 Enchant DC unbuffed is more than enough to deal with anything ... but are u satisfied with ur 5 seconds cooldowns ?:P Now u understand why i play sorc. (have bard and wizard past life)

If u want this to be funnier just consider what buffs can be added to a DC when what i mentioned was unbuffed for both wizards and sorcs :P

Abishai cookie combo +4 charisma = +2 dc
+2 Charisma Shrine from Ship = +1 dc
+yugo pot +1dc
House D pot + 1-2 DC

So a minimum of +5 DC increase. so 41+5 = 46 ... Do u still think u need higher DC than that ?:P In fact i never even use pots and quite often even neglect the ship buff cause it is too troublesome to get to the ship to get the buffs :P



Overall my opinion is ... wizard is more viable and better to play with mediocre gear and DCs... Sorc Shines with very good gear and correct build.

/bow

[bryanmeerkat]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

[Doxmaster]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

I'm sure it helps in Amrath elites, assuming your DC is 3 or 4 away from the wizards. Thats the only place DC+speed really seems to matter...

I have also noticed that most Sorcerers seem to be much more squishy than the Wizards I encounter...

They probably drop toughness, thinking they can get by with higher spellpen/DC and lower hp. 40 hp difference. As you said, pale masters get even more, so that can add up to 60 or 70 hp difference, assuming they are equally geared. That pushes a toon from 230 or so (I cant remember, but that seems about right for an ungeared caster) to 300 and will push a moderately geared one upwards to 400ish from 300ish. Huge difference.

[bryanmeerkat]

I'm sure it helps in Amrath elites, assuming your DC is 3 or 4 away from the wizards. Thats the only place DC+speed really seems to matter...

Cool my curiosity is sated and I see how sorcs can do the business better at the top

[Madryoch]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

hmm let's see... a 20 roll on save is a save regardless what ur DC is :P so they WILL break free or save at once sometimes ... well u ll have to wait :P i won't

as i said 41 DC is enough to hold almost everything . 41 for sorc is maximum and 44 is the maximum of non completionist ARCHMAGE fleshie ... so the maximum difference unless u are completionist is 3 points where at such high dcs in my opinion matters less since both spells land mine and a wizards.

The gear thingies was mentioned to emphasize the fact that a sorc is REQUIRED to have high lvl gear in order to have the best results while a wizard can do with less ...

Long Story short ... if u are a casual player go for wizard ... if u are willing to go to the ends sorcerer is very good a class to play and perform all the duties a wizard can do and some of em like reconstructing WF tanks a sorc does better.

Finally someone mentioned wizards having more HP

Wizards get 5 extra feats thus they can always have toughness while a sorc that wants both damage and DCs with past lives ... has to drop it

Also Pale Master as was mentioned gains 4 con from Shroud of the Lich and 20 extra HP from pale master 3 enhancement.

That is 60 extra Hp from that prestige ... and most archmages u encounter (at least in my experience) are WF which means they have inate bonus to CON so they have more hp than a sorc cause unfortunately WF sorcs are less viable with a -3 maximum DC on all spells ...

[Shade]

Current playing a max enchantment spec wizard (DC43 atm)

But still belive sorcerers to be superior.

The thing is, ultimately a sorc can do everything a wizard can do currently, only faster and do more at the same time.

So while its far easier to make a wizard an adequate endgame caster, to truely master the arcane class - your playing a sorcerer.

Sorcerers can reach pretty much unresistable epic DCc (mainly due to the insane -10 saves nerf epic mobs get, elites harder)
And all the while, they can maintain some level of damage with stronger wall of fire.. Cast faster to ensure that they are infact superior at CC then a wizard, given both of there DCs are high enough to ensure monsters fail on a 2 (quite possible on a maxxed out sorc, tho difficult)

Once savants come, sorcs should enjoy the highest level of SLA-driven DPS, hopefully comparable to your average melee in terms of dps and really start to shine compared to the wizard, as by using SLAs, he will not only be able to maintain excellent dps, but also have the mana pool to put out a similar, if not superior level of CC spells at the same time.

So ultimately, it depends on the player.

New/Casual/slower/less skills/undergeared or just plain loves the ability to swap spells: Your a wizard
Hardcore/Best of the best/Fully geared/Loves to cast frequently, fast and with the ferocity of a true nuker:
Your a sorcerer.

Ultimately, even the very best wizards I've known on khyber eventually all TR to sorcs. It's just the way of things. Sorc is the next evolutionary step. The fast casting and 1/2 cooldowns is just far too much of a draw once you reach the level of gear/skill to be mostly unstoppable anyways in terms of DC.

Personally im a sorcerer in heart. I'll be TR'ing back soon as update9 is near, probably get at least lvl6 or so rdy so i can enjoy the low lvls of savants as well.

[Xalerwons]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

Cooldowns on CC spells are usually irrelevant (because if it becomes relevant.... then SP issues will occur as well unless you like to guzzle SP pots)

Really, cooldowns on ALL spells are usually irrelevant because of the whole SP thing.

The faster cast time is very noticeably (but practically irrelevant except for a convenience or "feel" bonus) If you are using Quicken, the cast time difference is almost unnoticeable.

I guess once gear makes Wiz PrE benefits obsolete, then the scales tip, but who can honestly say they have enough gear to do so? (Then there's still the 5 extra feats and the capability to splash an evasion class for greater survivability while retaining higher DCs given equal gear than a pure Sorc)

as i said 41 DC is enough to hold almost everything . 41 for sorc is maximum and 44 is the maximum of non completionist ARCHMAGE fleshie ... so the maximum difference unless u are completionist is 3 points where at such high dcs in my opinion matters less since both spells land mine and a wizards.

I think Archmage actually gets an additional +1 DC (as sorcs cannot fit both past life Bard and Wizard and SF+GSF without sacrificing, Toughness and 2 of the metamagic feats)

[Madryoch]

Cooldowns on CC spells are usually irrelevant (because if it becomes relevant.... then SP issues will occur as well unless you like to guzzle SP pots)

Really, cooldowns on ALL spells are usually irrelevant because of the whole SP thing.

The faster cast time is very noticeably (but practically irrelevant except for a convenience or "feel" bonus) If you are using Quicken, the cast time difference is almost unnoticeable.

I guess once gear makes Wiz PrE benefits obsolete, then the scales tip, but who can honestly say they have enough gear to do so? (Then there's still the 5 extra feats and the capability to splash an evasion class for greater survivability while retaining higher DCs given equal gear than a pure Sorc)



I think Archmage actually gets an additional +1 DC (as sorcs cannot fit both past life Bard and Wizard and SF+GSF without sacrificing, Toughness and 2 of the metamagic feats)

My feats as human are ...
Empower
Maximize
Heighten
Extend
Spell Focus Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Wizard Past Life
Bard Past life

Total 8 feats ... so nope :P the dc difference is
2 extra bonus from archmage line and 1 from capstone intelligence boost so 3


My charisma is 42 so drow wouldn't get higher Cha modifier . Regarding toughness ... if u have good gear u don't need it ... I have 360 hp without toughness , exceptional con 2 and GS hp item. I let u decide if i really need it or not :P

Now regarding the ... the cooldowns don't matter thing that's untrue ... i never said u ll have to spam spells during the entire duration of an epic quest...My Idea is if mobs save due to a lucky 20 roll or due to not having something targeted and expecting automatic targeting to do the trick then as wizard u need to run around for 5 seconds ... or another case ... many mobs in the same room like amrath quests that one hold is not enough to catch em all the way they are spread...

Also note that the half cooldowns thingie works for most spells of sorc not just CC ones ... so by using twice as often strong dps spells other than the fact that they inflict more damage due to my capstone i can deal more damage overall ... Now u ll say ... who cares bout damage when u run out of sp and u are useless to which i ll only say i waiting to see what the PREs are gonna add ... for example if they make our nuke spells or some powerful ones of em cheap to cast then it might be worth it.

[transtemporal]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

For me, the defining quest for this is epic devils assault. Fast-moving mobs and lots of casters and eles. Wiz players need to have better timing than sorc players and eda is one quest where you need really good timing, otherwise your targets have teleported away. Or you get hit with massive damage and lose your spell.

Very good wiz players do exactly as you said. They choose their time to cast, they hold once and it sticks. But more often than not, I don't see this happening. The wiz falls back on longlasting-static cc like discoball and web because mass hold is too slow/too expensive, and the melees end up stunning everything to bring it down.

But definitely, for most other epics, wiz's rule the roost.

[PopeJual]

A generic, moderately geared level 20 Wizard is going to be much more effective than a generic, moderately geared level 20 Sorcerer because the Wizard's DCs will be good enough to actually do everything that you'll need while the Sorcerer will struggle to get his or her spells to land on some enemies.

A well built, well geared, well played Sorcerer 20 will not have problems getting their spells to land while the well built, well geared, well played Wizard will have DCs that are overkill even for Amrath and the more difficult Epics, so the DCs won't matter nearly as much at that point.

I have also noticed that most Sorerers seem to be much more squishy than the Wizards I encounter, but that may very well be just because I only encounter Sorcerers in pugs while I happen to know some really decent Wizards. Aside from the benefits that come from Pale Master, I don't see any reason why Sorcerers should be more squishy than Wizards.

[stille_nacht]

Anger/ Sorcs are viable/good

i was simply explaining why most ppl think wizards are better... there is no need to accuse me of "mocking", i gave the logical reasons and conclusions that most people come to. excuse me for answering the question specifically stated by the OP. No where did i say gimp. I said underperform. Which, as of now, on average, is true.

yes, sorcs are still viable, though i dont think recasting mass hold in 2 seconds is necessary. Well geared sorc> average wizard, yes this is true, but i am speaking in general cases. Average wizard vs. average sorc per se.

also, A: most people dont have a set of abishai cookies to munch every day
and B: most sorcs/wizards do not have a dc 41 hold unbuffed...

also, the wizard past life grants additional dc (somehow ppl associate a wizard with having wizard past life >.>)

also, epic sands can be pretty rough, but as stated above, a topped of wizard or sorc will one shot hold anything anyway.

[soulaeon]

Right now, sorcerers are broken because they do not have a prestige line. They're not balanced with wizards at all.
Otherwise, sorcerers have significantly less cool-downs and faster casting time.

[Jaid314]

eh, it's not all that bad. sorcerers need more gear to be effective in certain harder epics. that's about it.

[Madryoch]

i was simply explaining why most ppl think wizards are better... there is no need to accuse me of "mocking", i gave the logical reasons and conclusions that most people come to. excuse me for answering the question specifically stated by the OP. No where did i say gimp. I said underperform. Which, as of now, on average, is true.

yes, sorcs are still viable, though i dont think recasting mass hold in 2 seconds is necessary. Well geared sorc> average wizard, yes this is true, but i am speaking in general cases. Average wizard vs. average sorc per se.

also, A: most people dont have a set of abishai cookies to munch every day
and B: most sorcs/wizards do not have a dc 41 hold unbuffed...

also, the wizard past life grants additional dc (somehow ppl associate a wizard with having wizard past life >.>)

also, epic sands can be pretty rough, but as stated above, a topped of wizard or sorc will one shot hold anything anyway.

Uhm the mocking part was a figure of speech :P Was angry mostly due to the behavior of specific people on the server who go by the same idea as the one u and some others said that the sorcs are gimpwizards as the post is named...Never personally angry at u...

Now i didn't catch the wizard past life thingie i gotta admit ... a sorc that wants to have top dcs HAS to have one of em...

And regarding cookies? as i mentioned i am too lazy to use em even though i always carry some with me wherever i go ... i don't even have access to yugo pots cause i was too lazy to farm rep :P i don't even bother with guild buffs most of the time cause i can't be arsed to go to the guild ship to get em :P

and well geared sorc >> average wizard is true but i was suggesting that perhaps well geared sorc >> well geared wizard due to the reasons i gave :P Someone also said who believes they have close to perfect gear :P well i do believe i have something VERY close to ideal gear in my mind :P

[Ninety0ne]

1. No amount of explantion by the op saves posting "gimp wizards" in the sorc forum as a troll post. But ill feed it a bit since the thread is staying pretty classy.
2. On CC cooldowns since an archmage can fling free webs and hypnos while cooling down mass hold seems to wash the entire argument re cc cooldowns.
3. Mana pool if were talking endgame none of us run out of mana. We all have stacks of pots so this line should prolly go away.
4. Warforged -1 dc as a sorc
5. Feats this hurts the sorc class unless you have more than one wizard pastlife
6. Sorcs firewalls do more damage
7. Spell selection A favorite topic but under analysis if a sorc is willing to be epic only they will have the same spells so since were talking endgame this one also should go away as a debate point.

To close the wizard is the better epic choice as of now but its due to the warforged race not over a bunch of debate points that are so very close in application.

[KingOfCheese]

Reasons I like my sorc the best:

1) I just do (intangibles count)
2) On the areas where he is weaker than a Wiz, he is more than good enough (DC's are good enough (my sorc is routinely used in all end game content with great success); spell selection is good enough; etc.).
3) Where the sorc is superior (sp, casting speed, and damage output), a wiz isn't good enough to my liking. I like doing speed runs--the sorc shines here.
4) I just do.

[Riorik]

Is this yet another 'who's better' thread?

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Sorcs are Charismatic while Wizards are Intelligent. Which do you look for in real life?

/to each their own really.