Gimpwizards

[Riorik]

Is this yet another 'who's better' thread?

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Sorcs are Charismatic while Wizards are Intelligent. Which do you look for in real life?

/to each their own really.

[Jaid314]

in essence, it's kinda like the "dps rogue vs traps rogue" debate, only the gear is a bit harder to get for a CC sorcerer


(and btw, i don't really feel like i'm missing out on anything when it comes to spells known. well, ok, i kinda slightly wish i had one more level 2 spell, but that's about it. on the whole, my sorcerer does just fine in epics and normal content, and i don't even have that 41 unbuffed DC... currently rocking 38, actually. i might wish for a bit higher in some situations, but it's pretty rare, and in any case i'm planning on getting there, just haven't reached that point yet)

essentially, if you can't get the gear, go wizard. just like if you can't or won't get the rogue traps gear, go mechanic.

but if you can get the gear, there's not much point in worrying about whether you have enough DC or more than enough DC... having more than enough DC does not make you any better, since the benefit ends when you have enough. sure, a mechanic rogue (wizard) has higher skills (DCs), but once you can reliably find and disarm the trap (CC the target) it really doesn't matter how much more you have.

[Crystalizer]

most players playing sorcerers try to play them as fast casting wizards, so as versatile arcanes
most sorcerer builds you can find keep the dc road
but sorcerers are specialists, and to me they really rock when you play them as hybrids melee/arcanes, without maximizing charisma, but cap them and you have great dps machines
i am very curious of the future prestige enhancements, will devs consider the melee path ? it would be a great idea really ^^

[testing1234]

do feel the wizard past life is better then the sorc, so anytime at 20 you can TR and gain more from your past life then the sorcerer will. this is the only permanent feature of the competition since turbine keep updating the game as time goes and whos better is always changing with each update to the PrEs and the game

[Kamo]

Man you really like to start arguments between classes, i just recently got done reading a thread where you trashed on fvs and praised clerics. I play a x2 tr'd sorc, and I also have a wizard. I prefer my sorc more just because that is my prefrence, and hopefully elemental savants will make sorcs compete a little more.

[transtemporal]

...at this time is there anything that makes them stand there ground with a wizzie ?

Faster casting, faster cool-downs and more spellpoints is what it comes down to essentially. And in fact I don't find the spellpoint thing too much of a hassle on my wiz. The thing I hate is slower casting. It drives me nuts.

Overall, it feels like my sorc is slightly underpowered compared to my wiz. He's very far from being gimp though.

[transtemporal]

Surely though the cooldown on mass holds wouldnt matter on an equally geared Wizard as you dont have to worry about casting it a second time ?

For me, the defining quest for this is epic devils assault. Fast-moving mobs and lots of casters and eles. Wiz players need to have better timing than sorc players and eda is one quest where you need really good timing, otherwise your targets have teleported away. Or you get hit with massive damage and lose your spell.

Very good wiz players do exactly as you said. They choose their time to cast, they hold once and it sticks. But more often than not, I don't see this happening. The wiz falls back on longlasting-static cc like discoball and web because mass hold is too slow/too expensive, and the melees end up stunning everything to bring it down.

But definitely, for most other epics, wiz's rule the roost.

[Madryoch]

1. No amount of explantion by the op saves posting "gimp wizards" in the sorc forum as a troll post. But ill feed it a bit since the thread is staying pretty classy.
2. On CC cooldowns since an archmage can fling free webs and hypnos while cooling down mass hold seems to wash the entire argument re cc cooldowns.
3. Mana pool if were talking endgame none of us run out of mana. We all have stacks of pots so this line should prolly go away.
4. Warforged -1 dc as a sorc
5. Feats this hurts the sorc class unless you have more than one wizard pastlife
6. Sorcs firewalls do more damage
7. Spell selection A favorite topic but under analysis if a sorc is willing to be epic only they will have the same spells so since were talking endgame this one also should go away as a debate point.

To close the wizard is the better epic choice as of now but its due to the warforged race not over a bunch of debate points that are so very close in application.

1. agreed
2. Not quite since neither web nor hypno allow autocrits thus it is not exactly the same...
3. Sp pots is a solution to SP issues but it's an expensive solution and most of the times i try to avoid using one if possible.
4. WF is as i mentioned -3 DC . Human can have an even numbered charisma of 42 with a +4 tome exceptional 1 and 2 +7 cha item and litany as well as all the cha enhancements + 1 from human adaptability...
Wf starts with 2 less charisma and doesn't have Human adaptability to boost it so -3 points of charisma = makes ur score odd = -2 DC
Also Wf has 7 feats so if u want to have

empower
maximize
extend
heighten
Spell focus
Greater Spell Focus
Wizard Past Life
Bard Past Life

then u can't do it unless u want to ditch any of the metamagic feats in which case u ll have a -2 as i mentioned ... thus i said POTENTIALLY a -3 DC ...

Far from -1 that u said :P

5.Totally agree with u.Sometimes in fact even with more than 1 wiz past life u still want more feats ... for example to the list i mentioned above i wouldn't mind toughness for extra 52 hp or perhaps a second school focus. The only feat u can avoid using with past life wizard is Spell Pen unfortunately and even as human with 8 feats to choose ur options are less than what i d like. Oh well who knows ... let's see how elemental savants are gonna be like :P Hope fully they won't add some spell focus and greater spellfocus in evocation school as requirement or mental toughness ... in order to take the PRE. They better ask for stuff like empower,maximize,heighten etc. Oh well one can only hope...
6.Yes they do.
7.agreeed

[Thuriaz]

Having played around in the character planner a bit when I was trying to decide on my caster of choice for an Arcane build I came to a couple general conclusions.

#1) Archmage provides unlimited damage output, not maximum your just not going to run out using it, in the from of SLA MM/AM Bolt/AMBlast/Chain/Cyclonic at the cost of 2 Evo Focus, and still provides enough feats to Enchant Focus

#2) Pale Master (the build I settled on) provides self healing, unlimited damage output in the form of Necrotic Bolt/Blast/Touch + AOE DMG from Greater Death Aura for some of the best damage output/manna in game (surpassing firewall in MANY instances) and can be combined WITH firewall for bar none the best Arcane DPS. This comes at a cost, against the undead your less effective than the above archmage.

The two above were in competition for the Arcane Slot, however lets look at what they were in competition with and you'll see why I say it was CLOSE.

#3) The Sorcerer: Throwing out any concept of command and control, lets just look at raw damage output. Maximize, Empower, both of those cost reduced to a total of 25, that is the SAME cost as a wizards maximize. A larger SP pool (coupled with that lower Max/Emp cost making it cost effective to max/emp all the way down to level 2 spells), but sacrificing a toughness feat. This build would have been able to nuke from shrine to shrine and should, after capstone, be able to achieve 1000+ damage on a comparatively cheaper Polar Ray than any wizard would be throwing (they just don't have the points to spare on making it cheaper). However THAT'S NOT ALL. This build would be able to wand heal (and I ran this build up to level 7, and was managing to land 65% of the time Cure Light wands) and use scrolls. At higher levels it would be able to even raise dead and help take the weight off the cleric.


Why did I go with the second build? Three things.

#1) Resources, it's easier to make a good Pale Master, still do CC when you need to, and be a damage monster all the rest of the time even if all you do is GD-Aura and Firewall and hop around like a rabbit, not to mention all the little tricks you can do to make it even more deadly.

#2) Easier access to self healing, lets face it, GD-Aura will make a palemaster into a WizTank at times. Your a healers best friend because he NEVER has to worry about you.

#3) Extra gear slots, you no longer need to worry about heavy fort, you gain a ton of extra SP, this means you can wear gear that adds even more HP, Invulnerabiltiy (5dr), or maybe something that gives off some damage when your hit (figure 15 from GDA average, +8 each time your hit, +40 from fire shield each time your hit (average), +50 each tick from fire wall (average and LOW end guestimation) That's over 100+ damage per tick, with potential for a LOT MORE with all the SPA Necros you would very easily approach the level of DPS sustained by a Battle Cleric, quite possibly surpassing them. That's all without maximize, and that's not counting in the damage from crits (which would bump the average number to around 250 - 300 per tick). You basically become a walking engine of death.

HOWEVER

To address the original post again, the reason this was so close is time vs damage. A sorcerer as they get more and more levels does more and more damage and would easily surpass the Palemaster/Archmage in raw output. There are times when Raw Output can mean a lot also. When your up against an epic redname you need them dead now, not a minute from now, not 20 seconds from now, you need it done in 5 - 6 casts, and only a sorcerer can bring that to the table.

[soulaeon]

#2) Pale Master (the build I settled on) provides self healing, unlimited damage output in the form of Necrotic Bolt/Blast/Touch + AOE DMG from Greater Death Aura for some of the best damage output/manna in game (surpassing firewall in MANY instances) and can be combined WITH firewall for bar none the best Arcane DPS. This comes at a cost, against the undead your less effective than the above archmage.

You're forgetting something basic that extends away from the class and prestige you chose.
Most groups are buffed at the entrance of the quest, and you probably have to cast your Shroud at this time too (which is 100 less SP). Unless you move away from the group quickly to avoid this process, the group's healer has a good chance of hitting you with Death Ward, or would need to target everyone individually, which also wastes their SP. I never played a Pale Master far enough to get to that point, but is this not a point against being a wizard?
Also, I notice that Pale Masters die a lot. They spend the same SP to heal themselves as they do DPS, and I do not see how they can always do both at the same time, and Death Aura cant always be the best option.

[Madryoch]

You're forgetting something basic that extends away from the class and prestige you chose.
Most groups are buffed at the entrance of the quest, and you probably have to cast your Shroud at this time too (which is 100 less SP). Unless you move away from the group quickly to avoid this process, the group's healer has a good chance of hitting you with Death Ward, or would need to target everyone individually, which also wastes their SP. I never played a Pale Master far enough to get to that point, but is this not a point against being a wizard?
Also, I notice that Pale Masters die a lot. They spend the same SP to heal themselves as they do DPS, and I do not see how they can always do both at the same time, and Death Aura cant always be the best option.

Hmm while i prefer my sorc the Pale Masters die a lot comment is not correct :P ... They have the aura to heal and the negative energy burst to actively heal themselves ... they have 60 extra hp (4 con increase and 20 from pale master 3)and also have toughness(cause they need it for pale master and cause they get 5 extra feat so it's normal to have) means 42 to 52 extra hp which is translated in 102-112 extra maximum hp :P i believe that this makes em better at surviving :P They spend the same SP to heal themselves and dps by negative energy burst aoe spell dealing damage at the same time it heals u :P Also they have the harry potter spell that costs em 5 hp 1 sp = free damage spell...

While i am NOT claiming that pale masters that play the game are less skilled(player isn't measured by the class they play ofc) it is probably the combo that requires the least skill (if there's any skill involvement in this game at all) to play due to the fact that they are ridiculously easy atm to play.

[Hounder]

^
You use your :P as often as i use my fullstops. (Not literally)
Some of your posts just sounds like you are outright showing off by actively comparing everything good to your supposed 'superior' sorcerer.
We all know you farmed out your chrono set etc but mentioning it in every thread seems overkill dosn't it?
Maybe you might want to change your tone alil? Just saying

[Ninety0ne]

2. Not quite since neither web nor hypno allow autocrits thus it not exactly the same

So the statement i made about cc cooldowns not being an issue worth discussing seems to have atleast confused one reader above. So to clarify hypno web and mass hold are not the same effects at all (shocking). What hypno gives you is a second aoe mezz spell that you may cast after anything saves vs mass hold _while_ mass hold is cooling down. Since it is in effect free for an AM imo it removes the cc cooldown question as a point of comparison. Web for the low save mobs functions similarly with a chain cast of mass hold monster/sla hypno/sla web all quickened your ready to pop a mass hold on anything that saved and is mezzed so the melees can clear the map. Hope that clears up any confusion.

[HallowedOne]

I like how these kind of thread ends up to "Class x is for pros, y is for noobs. I play x, therefore you all come bow before me".

Really, people, grown up and just do your job, no matter what the **** class you are.

[Jaid314]

You're forgetting something basic that extends away from the class and prestige you chose.
Most groups are buffed at the entrance of the quest, and you probably have to cast your Shroud at this time too (which is 100 less SP). Unless you move away from the group quickly to avoid this process, the group's healer has a good chance of hitting you with Death Ward, or would need to target everyone individually, which also wastes their SP. I never played a Pale Master far enough to get to that point, but is this not a point against being a wizard?
Also, I notice that Pale Masters die a lot. They spend the same SP to heal themselves as they do DPS, and I do not see how they can always do both at the same time, and Death Aura cant always be the best option.

eh, if you're grouping with pale masters that die a lot, you're grouping with the wrong pale masters. survival is easy when you're gaining back twice as much as a radiant servant's maxed aura. i'm getting up to 30 HP back from my death aura at level 14, let me get up to level 18 and get PM III and i'll probably be gaining 30-40 HP back per tick, plus getting temp HPs from lich form. if i craft myself a concordant op item, that will make it even harder for stuff to kill me. and when i get to 20 and put on my epic robe of night, it's going to be even more ridiculous.

throw in the ability to launch quickened negative energy bursts for a nice hefty spike heal/damage AOE, plus all those tasty immunities...

oh, and when you assume form, death ward gets nixed. so spam death ward on me all you want at the start of the quest, and once buffs are done i'll put on my shroud.

so yeah... if you're grouping with pale master PrE types that die often, you're grouping with the wrong pale masters. because they clearly have no survival instincts whatsoever...

[Ninety0ne]

To conclude my thought id say its really a question of wf and more hp versus a higher damage firewall in the end.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

. that's about it.

I think you are grossly trivializing this point. Yeah equipment for which you need to crazily grind Epic and spend untold millions on scrolls. A 28-point Wiz build with a +1 enchanment random drop trash, no greensteel, no epic items, no ToD sets, no Yugo pots, no House D pots, no giving up feats etc. can get their DCs high enough to run epic effectively (DC 38-39). A sorc needs to grind their way to mediocrity right now. Perhaps if we hold judgement until next update comes along, this conversation will be different.

[noinfo]

Can you do this on your wizard?

Eardweller and caster level 23 I would probably say yes to that question.

[noinfo]

So I recently commented that currently Sorcs are basically bad wizards , and a few people disagreed with me , not enough to explain why or even comment that they disagreed , but disagree'd they did .

I am not here to argue that out , but Id like to know what a sorc has to offer compared to a wizard that I am missing here . I see the extra spellpoints but both PM and AM get very cheap abilities to balance that , is there anything else out there ?

I know sorcs are waiting on there Pre's but at this time is there anything that makes them stand there ground with a wizzie ?

Heres hoping you get your Savant soon

Prior to the wizard capstone and pre sorc's dominated content over wizards, lack of spell variations basically meant that they did not suffer from spell choice, larger sp pools, dc's mattered less and there dc's were basically the same as a wizard anyway and most importantly casting and cool down speeds. Basically if you were a wizard you were just a gimped sorc. Like everything in this game it has cycled. In other posts some very well built sorcs can come close to closing in on wizards and that is fine, I have several of each caster type. When sorcs get their PRE I hope it levels the playing field a bit more for them but the reality is that it seems that one will always be better than an other at any particular point in time. Play your toon well and enjoy it for the strengths that it has.