ranged overhaul

[bfmurf201]

Any thoughts ? Waiting too see what the devs feel is an upgrade , other then just fixes too known alacrity issues and gimped tod sets. It's now verbally documented in ask the devs 13 that they were doing a ranged pass next , after the spell pass = update 9 . If the devs would only fling us a bone as to the ideas they have . ranged power attack , toggled many shot , dex and str bonus to damage , tactical ranged feats ? Idk my guess is as good as yours . But would appreciate a litle dev feedback

[Maldavenous]

1. Arrow Crafting - Can be done by anyone but makes arrows like +5 Holy accessible. I've been collecting arrows for quite some time and only have a few hundred +5 Holy arrows. I could burn through those in a single quest easy.

2. Ranged Tactical Feats - Snaring Arrow (immobilizes target, similar to web), Hamstring (change reqs and make it work with bow), Piercing Shot (stacks with Sunder, reduces fortification by 5%).

3. Ranged Power Attack - Power Attack for the ranged folks. Ranged loses a lot of potential damage because power attack doesn't work with it. I think a second feat is acceptable; if you want melee/ranged you would need to make an extra investment.

4. Attack Speed Balancing - Correct the attack speed bonuses for ranged combat and balance rate of fire towards other classes (see below for effect that could compensate difference between melee combat feats).

5. Double Shot - Based on Class/Feats you get an additional arrow fired on a percentage of your shots. This is like Double Strike but it's not a Proc on Hit effect it's a Proc on Attack effect. Many Shot is adjusted to be a 100% Double/Triple/Quad Shot ability so that Double Shot will not stack with it. It might be possible to stat the normal Multishot effect to allow Double/Triple/Quad for example Ranged Combat: Double 10%, Improved Ranged Combat: Double 12% Triple 3%, Greater Ranged Combat Double 15%, Triple 4%, Quad 1%.

[stille_nacht]

i agree with a lot of ^

also, dont bring real life into this, it is a game, as such, we need to think of game mechanics, not realism
well, not unless you want arrows to be one shot kills against any humanoid or meteor swarm dealing tens of thousands of damage....

i think what needs to happen is one of two things:
A: devs decide that they genuinly do not want ranged to be viable in ddo, they announce it "we do not feel that range should be a main combat alternative because of X, Y, and Z"

B: Ranged speed needs to increase, maybe not the animation, but the hits should come at ~80% of a two handed weapon being swung at minimum, probably higher, or perhaps a double shot proc as mentioned above

[Seliana]

Why cant Manyshot simply be a toggle that lets you fire 2 arrows at once all day long?

It would give Archers more averaged out dps at all times without needing to tweak attack speeds or worrying about archery changes making Manyshot too powerful while giving them the boost they need to balance out the build with melee.

Simple fix.

[bfmurf201]

The 2 arrow constant with fixed alacrity or my dex bonus as added damage would be nice .

[Mark_G]

While I am all for giving ranged attacks a little nudge to make them better, my opinion is ranged combat should be worse than hand-to-hand combat. Going toe-to-toe with an opponent is far riskier than sitting back and shooting foes. Greater risk = greater dps...again, in my opinion.

[lazyninja81]

In my mind, highly skilled archers (i.e. high level rangers) can choose which parts of their targets to aim at, picking specific weaknesses to exploit. I have seen this described in some D&D rules as a called shot. I found the following description at dandwwiki.com:

"Called Shot [General, Fighter]
You do more damage with pinpoint attacks.
Prerequisite: [[3e Prerequisite: Dex 13]]
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for the round, you may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls for the round and add the same number to all weapon damage rolls for Dexterity-based attacks. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next action.
Special: Creatures lacking an anatomy and thus immune to critical hits, are immune to this extra damage. Called shot can be used with ranged weapons at ranges up to 30 feet.
Notes: Dexterity-based attacks are attacks that use the Dexterity modifier rather than the Strength modifier for attack rolls; missile weapons, thrown weapons and weapons used with the Weapon Finesse feat. Called shot cannot be used with ranged touch attacks."

This could be adapted to function as a rangers power attack for DDO. Obviously, taking the time to specify a part of the mobs body to hit and the number of attacks to subtract will take too long in DDO combat. Instead, make called shot a toggle feat, like power attack, that boosts base damage. This could even scale with ranger level through action points. The increased damage would represent the rangers ability to aim for vital areas on the mob versus just inflicting flesh wounds. However, this would also mean that mobs without vital areas, say undead and contructs, would be immune to called shot damage.

[shortdevils]

While I am all for giving ranged attacks a little nudge to make them better, my opinion is ranged combat should be worse than hand-to-hand combat. Going toe-to-toe with an opponent is far riskier than sitting back and shooting foes. Greater risk = greater dps...again, in my opinion.

I agree with this point.

However i think they can make damage greatly scale with distance. Like the feat , point blank shot. So once u are close enough, u may be nearly on par with melee dps.


Either that or Give them more abilities with pre's. Useful abilities that work on raid bossess. Arcane archers could get AOE damage arrows and arrows that mimic spells. Arrows that make people dance , auto crit holds ( not mass hold mind you),useful poison etc The saves could be significantly weaker than casters but high enough to work at most of the time.

thesniper could get better sneak attack but at greater distances , a range version of assassinate. And with special targeted shots be able to reduce fortification, cripple, blind , reduce AC , daze, Temporily disarm an enemy( which could cause their weapon to vanish and stop them from attacking or reduce damAge greatly) .

[stille_nacht]

However i think they can make damage greatly scale with distance. Like the feat , point blank shot. So once u are close enough, u may be nearly on par with melee dps.

THIS, it even makes sense in RL, if i was standing 5 feet away, i could easily nock 4 arrows at a time and hit with all of them, every time (assuming im just going for body shots)... i would like to see this implemented NAUGH (of course constant 4 arrows is over the top, but scaling as enemies get closer does make sense)

+1


also, i would like to see those rocks from abbott made into arrows 8D

[Thornton]

I really don't think they should mess with manyshot. IMO it is fine as it is. Give rangers +Dex. bonus to damage as well as Str. That would do it. Oh and fix the dropped shots bug. And make all of the ranged alacity items/capstone work like they should.

[drac317]

In my mind, highly skilled archers (i.e. high level rangers) can choose which parts of their targets to aim at, picking specific weaknesses to exploit. I have seen this described in some D&D rules as a called shot. I found the following description at dandwwiki.com:

"Called Shot [General, Fighter]
You do more damage with pinpoint attacks.
Prerequisite: [[3e Prerequisite: Dex 13]]
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for the round, you may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls for the round and add the same number to all weapon damage rolls for Dexterity-based attacks. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next action.
Special: Creatures lacking an anatomy and thus immune to critical hits, are immune to this extra damage. Called shot can be used with ranged weapons at ranges up to 30 feet.
Notes: Dexterity-based attacks are attacks that use the Dexterity modifier rather than the Strength modifier for attack rolls; missile weapons, thrown weapons and weapons used with the Weapon Finesse feat. Called shot cannot be used with ranged touch attacks."

This could be adapted to function as a rangers power attack for DDO. Obviously, taking the time to specify a part of the mobs body to hit and the number of attacks to subtract will take too long in DDO combat. Instead, make called shot a toggle feat, like power attack, that boosts base damage. This could even scale with ranger level through action points. The increased damage would represent the rangers ability to aim for vital areas on the mob versus just inflicting flesh wounds. However, this would also mean that mobs without vital areas, say undead and contructs, would be immune to called shot damage.

not a bad idea, really its just PowerShot from the PeerlessArcher PrC from the 3e SilverMarches supplement.
the real problem is your(and others) use of ranger in relation to ranged combat, considering a fighter can be more specialized than a ranger.
trying to cranck up ranged combat by giving Rangers more enhancements and abilities does nothing for ranged combat as a whole and should be avoided.

[lazyninja81]

not a bad idea, really its just PowerShot from the PeerlessArcher PrC from the 3e SilverMarches supplement.
the real problem is your(and others) use of ranger in relation to ranged combat, considering a fighter can be more specialized than a ranger.

You're right, the called shot feat should be based on feat prereq's that a fighter could take too if they specialized in ranged combat. I often assume that any ranged combat toon is a ranger or rogue mechanic. Don't see many fighters specializing in ranged but it should be possible.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't think tactical ranged feats are the way to go. As it is there are too many feats an archer needs: even fighters would have a tough time fitting in such feats unless they completely abandoned melee combat altogether (might be possible with a ranged fix in general, but doubtful), and no one else would be able to afford them.

My #1 suggestion is to increase RoF dramatically, but have the increase turn off when Manyshot is active, or have the increase lessened considerably when Manyshot is active. Even with the poor RoF we have now, Manyshot is basically the highest DPS in the game for those 20 seconds, and that doesn't need improving.

Other suggestions:
-Remove all the prerequisites except for Point Blank Shot for Bow Strength. The feat should be available to anyone who wants to use a bow without crippling their character with ridiculous prerequisites. Doing so will not be stepping on the toes of rangers.

-Start selling slashing and blunt arrows, perhaps through House Denieth.

-Start selling an assortment of arrows with weapon properties on them, like Holy, Shocking, etc...

-Improve monsters' ability to change between melee and ranged combat, and alter their AI to break off from trying to catch something they can't hit after X amount of time, to aggro on the next closest/most threatening target.

[drac317]

You're right, the called shot feat should be based on feat prereq's that a fighter could take too if they specialized in ranged combat. I often assume that any ranged combat toon is a ranger or rogue mechanic. Don't see many fighters specializing in ranged but it should be possible.

actually easier and the kensai/AA combo is very effective in the proper time and place

[lazyninja81]

I don't think tactical ranged feats are the way to go. As it is there are too many feats an archer needs: even fighters would have a tough time fitting in such feats unless they completely abandoned melee combat altogether (might be possible with a ranged fix in general, but doubtful), and no one else would be able to afford them.

My #1 suggestion is to increase RoF dramatically, but have the increase turn off when Manyshot is active, or have the increase lessened considerably when Manyshot is active. Even with the poor RoF we have now, Manyshot is basically the highest DPS in the game for those 20 seconds, and that doesn't need improving.

I have to disagree a bit. I don't think it's realistic (and yes I know I'm saying realistic in reference to a fantasy game to have a fighter or ranger who is an expert swordsman and archer. A player should have to choose which form of combat is going to take priority. If the increase in RoF is done in some way to reflect a specialization in archer I may agree. But if it's an across the board increase for every toon with a bow I disagree.

[redoubt]

Lots of good ideas in here.

One thing to keep in mind. Ranger does not and should not equal ranged.

Make added feats be just feats. Don't make them require being a ranger.

Could also make another pre that is available to fighters (and rangers maybe).

On to the ideas:

I've always liked the enhancement lines ideas to manyshot.

One line reduces the cool down timer.
The other line increases the duration of the manyshot.

The cost of an extra feat (maybe) and action points should be enough to prevent tempest rangers from getting more than maybe the first tier of it, but give classes like fighter or pure archers a nice boost at the cost of melee enhancements.

[stille_nacht]

I would suggest a weapon fire rate bonus, or even multiple arrows based on proximity. As of now, i am thinking of a scaling effect:

Ranged Weapon Fighting I- You gain +2 to-hit for bows, when you are within 15 game feet of an opponent, you fire 25% faster.
Ranged Weapon Fighting II- You gain +2 to-hit for bows, when you are within 30 game feet of an opponent, you gain a 25% attack speed increase, when you are within 15 game feet of an opponent you gain a 50% attack speed increase.
Ranged Weapon Fighting III- You gain another +2 to-hit for bows, when you are within 45 feet, 25% speed increase, within 30 ft, 50% increase, within 15 ft, 75% increase.

I do not think this would lead to an unreasonable amount of damage, but if it does, simply change the percentage values. (if you want a RL type explanation, it is muuuuch easier to nock and fire arrows when things are closer rather than further because aiming is quicker.

Note i still think twf should do more on single enemies, the goal is to make ranged a viable choice for damage.